DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.45394#0082
80
TESTIMONY OF L. P. Di CESNOLA.
Question repeated.
A. That piece of rod in the rear.
A. Well, there it is, with a split running down
there, and you cannot definitely state ?
A. The very break, which must not. be very
deep, because if it was deep it would come out ;
that is the only explanation I can give; some
sculptor may give it better.
Q. Don’t you think, sir, that an honest-mind-
ed man might have a little question upon an ex-
amination of that statue as to whether it did not
consist of different pieces ?
A. An ignorant man may, but not an intelli-
gent one.
(2729) Q. Like Feuardent ?
A. I don’t make any comparison.
Q. Well, did you mean to apply that remark
to him when you said an ignorant man ?
A. I don’t make any comparison, sir.
Q. Well, don’t you think an honest-minded
man who had dealt in antiquities for 20 years
might upon an inspection of that- statue raise a
question as to whether it did not consist of two
or three pieces ?
A. If he was an ignorant man, yes, sir.
Q. Well, supposinghim not to be an ignorant
man, do you think the appearance of the statue
as it is now would furnish itself an answer to
all doubts and questions ?
A. No, sir; not the least.
Q. It would not furnish an answer ?
A. No, sir; it could not in my opinion.
Q. Weil, don’t you think an intelligent man
who had been a dealer in antiquities for 20 years
might upon an inspection of that statue as it
presents itself now honestly entertain a doubt
upon the question whether it did not consist of
two or three pieces ?
A. There have been no dealers in Cyprus an-
tiquities for 20 years.
Q. I don’t ask you about dealers in Cyprus
antiquities at all.
A. I think that stone requires a particular-
Q I am not asking you about that; do you
think it inconsistent with honesty that a dealer
accustomed to the examination of antiquities for
20 years should upon an inspection of that statue
as it stands here not doubt whether it don’t con-
sist of two or three pieces; now will you an-
swer that ?
A. I have no opinion to give in that respect.
(2730) Q. Is that stone to be met anywhere
in Europe outside of Cyprus ?
A. The what ?
Q. That stone; is it found anywhere in Eu-
rope outside of Cyprus ?
A. Calcareous stone of different kinds, differ-
ent degrees—I suppose so.
Q. Well, have you seen any ?
A. No, sir; never did.
Q. Never seen any in Paris ? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you never seen any calcareous build-
ing stone in Paris ? A. In Paris ?
Q. Yes sir, in Paris ? A. No, sir.
Q. Never saw any there ?
A. I never made any particular search for it.
Q. Do you say this stone hardens or softens
by exposure ?
A. I state there are different kinds of stone,
some soft ones, and some hard ones.
Q. Well, take this stone of which that statue
and the Golgoi and Cyprus statues are made;
does it harden or soften by exposure ?
A. It.depends upon what kind of atmosphere
it is in; if it is in a room that is damp it will
soften, if it is dry it will not.
(2731) Q. Well, Cyprus is surrounded by the
sea, is it not?
A. Yes, sir; but a very dry plaee.
Q. Very dry?
A. Very; exceedingly so.
Q. You say the sea air does not dampen—its
being surrounded by the sea does not moisten the
atmosphere.
A. It is too far distant where they come from
the sea shore.
Q. How far was Golgoi from the sea shore?
A. About an hour and a half.
Q. An hour-
A. An hour by a good horse, and an hour and
a half by a mule.
Q. It is not much further from the sea than
the centre of Staten Island is from the sea, is it?
A. But there is a range of mountains between.
Q. And that makes the air very dry?
A. The mountains do, I suppose.
Q. What is the effect of heat on the stone?
A. I could not say.
Q. Why can’t you say?
A. I don’t understand the question; what effect
would be on what?
Q. What is the effect of heat on this stone?
A. I am just experimenting now, and in two
or three years I will know.
(2732) Q. Don’t you know what is the effect of
heat on this stone? A. No, sir, not yet.
Q. Have you any idea what would become of
it if you should put it in a lime kiln?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Could you make lime of it?
A. I don’t think they can.
Q. Do you say that the exposure of a piece of
this stone to intense heat for a considerable
period, such as upon wood ashes—hot wood
ashes—have you any idea whether it would soft-
en it or harden it? A. Whether what?
Q. Have you any idea whether putting a piece
of this stone in a bed of hot wood ashes, or
among a lot of burning wood, would harden it
or soften it?
A. I don’t know; I suppose it would rather
harden it than anything else.
Q. Rather harden it?
A. Yes, sir; I suppose so.
Q. That is if you put it in a hot place—an oven
or a lime kiln—it would harden, wouldn’t it?
A. I said I don’t know; I suppose so; I have
never made the experiment.
Q. Don’t you know that exposure of that
stone to heat disintegrates/t and softens it?
A. The atmosphere, yes, sir.
Q. No, no, the heat—the heat?
A. No, sir; that I don’t know.
Q. Take the head of that statue which you say
is discolored by lying upon ashes—isn't that
harder than the body?
A. I have not tried it; I have not cut it; may
be.
(2733) Q. It may be? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it actually within your recollection, as a
matter of memory, that that head was found
on a bed of ashes?
A. Well, it is not very easy to remember ex-
actly that; it was found where a quantity of ash-
es were lying.
Q. Now, please don’t depart from the ques-
tion ; is it an act of your memory that induces
you to say that that head was found upon a bed
of ashes? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, then, as to the piece in the shoulder;
what you say in your testimony, substantially—
I don’t pretend to quote your words literally, but
I think you say that seeing the piece missing
from the shoulder, you directed your men to
search for it, and they found it.
A. Very likely.
Q. Now, where did they find it?
A. In the spot where the statue was.
Q. You suppose—I want your memory?
A. 1 say on the spot where the statue was
found; I didn’t say I supposed.
Q. What did they search for, and with?
A. With their hands, I suppose.
Q. You did say, “ I suppose,” then?
A. Now—yes, sir.
Q. I don’t want you to suppose; I want your
recollection; I want you to state what you re-
member; do you remember what they searched
for and with? A. With their hands.
(2734) Q. With their hands? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you call that piece of the same color as
the head, or the same color as the body?
A. Of the same color as the body.
Q. How do you account for so much of that
shoulder consisting of plaster?
A. There is no plaster—very little plaster that
I know of, there.
Q. Well, there is some there?
A. There was some plaster that was used, but
then after the investigating committee it was not
the same.
Q. Then the investigations of the committee
resulted in a change of its condition ?
A. It became chipped—its edges; that was the
trouble with these statues; every time you at-
tack it, some of the edges goes with it; it is easy
enough to see that.
Q. When this little Venus comes from the bath,
do you expect the edges gone?
A. No, sir; but I expect to see it coming out
with the feet and the base exactly as I said it
would yesterday, and that nobody has tampered
with it.
Q. Do you say that cement disintegrates by
exposure to the air?
A. Yes, sir; in this country.
Mr. Choate: Cement?
Mr. Bangs: Yes, sir.
Mr. Choate : He didn’t say so.
(2735) Mr. Bangs: He did say so just now I
want him to put an interpretation to the testi-
mony in relation to that, because it has a doubt-
ful meaning to my mind.
Q. Do you say that cement disintegrates by
exposure to the air in this country?
A. No, sir; I say cement—joining two pieces
together disintegrates the edges of the two pieces
put together.
Q. Do you say that plaster of Paris disinte-
grates by exposure to the air?
A. By my word cement, I meant a composition
of cement, plaster and other things; I used it as
a generic word.
Q. So you have been using the word cement
to indicate a composition?
A. Yes, sir; it is a composition.
Q. What is the particular cement of which
you have been speaking composed of?
A. I don’t know; the repairer knows, but I
don’t.
Q. Have you never seen it made?
A. No, sir.
Q. He has never told you what it was made
of? A. No, sir.
Q. And you really don’t know the materials
which have been used in putting together parts
of statuary in the museum?
Q. I know it is a cement, but I don’t know
what it is composed of.
Q. It is a compound ?
A. Yes, sir; but I don’t know what it is, be-
cause the investigating committee asked the re-
pairer, and he did not want to say. It is his se-
cret.
(2736) Q. Is it his secret what the cement con-
sisted of?
A. So he said. He makes his living out of that,
I suppose.
Q. Do you claim the action of that cement on
the edges is mechanical or chemical; does it
arise simply from the pressure or contact?
A. I don’t say that the cement disintegrates
the stone. I say the atmosphere acting upon the
dampness, and the cement together, it disinte-
grates the edges; that is what I meant to say.
Whether it is the cement or the dampness or the
atmosphere, or all combined, I don’t know.
Q. Do you mean that the damp air gets some
quality from the cement which makes it disinte-
grate the edges?
A. That I don’t know.
Q. Well, do you know what you do mean?
A. I know- it is that when they were repaired
in Fourteenth street, with nothing else except
plaster of Paris, by Gehlen, they had disinte-
grated to a great extent, and that is a fact which
is uncontroverted; therefore, we removed all
that plaster of Paris in order to stop these dis-
integrations.
Q. Now, is that what you mean; that plaster
of Paris disintegrates tli'e edges?
A. I say the air, the dampness—everything to
gether—disintegrates them.
(2737) Q. Do you mean .that the air disinteg-
rates the edges when plaster of Paris is used on
them when not covered up?
A. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.
TESTIMONY OF L. P. Di CESNOLA.
Question repeated.
A. That piece of rod in the rear.
A. Well, there it is, with a split running down
there, and you cannot definitely state ?
A. The very break, which must not. be very
deep, because if it was deep it would come out ;
that is the only explanation I can give; some
sculptor may give it better.
Q. Don’t you think, sir, that an honest-mind-
ed man might have a little question upon an ex-
amination of that statue as to whether it did not
consist of different pieces ?
A. An ignorant man may, but not an intelli-
gent one.
(2729) Q. Like Feuardent ?
A. I don’t make any comparison.
Q. Well, did you mean to apply that remark
to him when you said an ignorant man ?
A. I don’t make any comparison, sir.
Q. Well, don’t you think an honest-minded
man who had dealt in antiquities for 20 years
might upon an inspection of that- statue raise a
question as to whether it did not consist of two
or three pieces ?
A. If he was an ignorant man, yes, sir.
Q. Well, supposinghim not to be an ignorant
man, do you think the appearance of the statue
as it is now would furnish itself an answer to
all doubts and questions ?
A. No, sir; not the least.
Q. It would not furnish an answer ?
A. No, sir; it could not in my opinion.
Q. Weil, don’t you think an intelligent man
who had been a dealer in antiquities for 20 years
might upon an inspection of that statue as it
presents itself now honestly entertain a doubt
upon the question whether it did not consist of
two or three pieces ?
A. There have been no dealers in Cyprus an-
tiquities for 20 years.
Q. I don’t ask you about dealers in Cyprus
antiquities at all.
A. I think that stone requires a particular-
Q I am not asking you about that; do you
think it inconsistent with honesty that a dealer
accustomed to the examination of antiquities for
20 years should upon an inspection of that statue
as it stands here not doubt whether it don’t con-
sist of two or three pieces; now will you an-
swer that ?
A. I have no opinion to give in that respect.
(2730) Q. Is that stone to be met anywhere
in Europe outside of Cyprus ?
A. The what ?
Q. That stone; is it found anywhere in Eu-
rope outside of Cyprus ?
A. Calcareous stone of different kinds, differ-
ent degrees—I suppose so.
Q. Well, have you seen any ?
A. No, sir; never did.
Q. Never seen any in Paris ? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you never seen any calcareous build-
ing stone in Paris ? A. In Paris ?
Q. Yes sir, in Paris ? A. No, sir.
Q. Never saw any there ?
A. I never made any particular search for it.
Q. Do you say this stone hardens or softens
by exposure ?
A. I state there are different kinds of stone,
some soft ones, and some hard ones.
Q. Well, take this stone of which that statue
and the Golgoi and Cyprus statues are made;
does it harden or soften by exposure ?
A. It.depends upon what kind of atmosphere
it is in; if it is in a room that is damp it will
soften, if it is dry it will not.
(2731) Q. Well, Cyprus is surrounded by the
sea, is it not?
A. Yes, sir; but a very dry plaee.
Q. Very dry?
A. Very; exceedingly so.
Q. You say the sea air does not dampen—its
being surrounded by the sea does not moisten the
atmosphere.
A. It is too far distant where they come from
the sea shore.
Q. How far was Golgoi from the sea shore?
A. About an hour and a half.
Q. An hour-
A. An hour by a good horse, and an hour and
a half by a mule.
Q. It is not much further from the sea than
the centre of Staten Island is from the sea, is it?
A. But there is a range of mountains between.
Q. And that makes the air very dry?
A. The mountains do, I suppose.
Q. What is the effect of heat on the stone?
A. I could not say.
Q. Why can’t you say?
A. I don’t understand the question; what effect
would be on what?
Q. What is the effect of heat on this stone?
A. I am just experimenting now, and in two
or three years I will know.
(2732) Q. Don’t you know what is the effect of
heat on this stone? A. No, sir, not yet.
Q. Have you any idea what would become of
it if you should put it in a lime kiln?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Could you make lime of it?
A. I don’t think they can.
Q. Do you say that the exposure of a piece of
this stone to intense heat for a considerable
period, such as upon wood ashes—hot wood
ashes—have you any idea whether it would soft-
en it or harden it? A. Whether what?
Q. Have you any idea whether putting a piece
of this stone in a bed of hot wood ashes, or
among a lot of burning wood, would harden it
or soften it?
A. I don’t know; I suppose it would rather
harden it than anything else.
Q. Rather harden it?
A. Yes, sir; I suppose so.
Q. That is if you put it in a hot place—an oven
or a lime kiln—it would harden, wouldn’t it?
A. I said I don’t know; I suppose so; I have
never made the experiment.
Q. Don’t you know that exposure of that
stone to heat disintegrates/t and softens it?
A. The atmosphere, yes, sir.
Q. No, no, the heat—the heat?
A. No, sir; that I don’t know.
Q. Take the head of that statue which you say
is discolored by lying upon ashes—isn't that
harder than the body?
A. I have not tried it; I have not cut it; may
be.
(2733) Q. It may be? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it actually within your recollection, as a
matter of memory, that that head was found
on a bed of ashes?
A. Well, it is not very easy to remember ex-
actly that; it was found where a quantity of ash-
es were lying.
Q. Now, please don’t depart from the ques-
tion ; is it an act of your memory that induces
you to say that that head was found upon a bed
of ashes? A. No, sir.
Q. Now, then, as to the piece in the shoulder;
what you say in your testimony, substantially—
I don’t pretend to quote your words literally, but
I think you say that seeing the piece missing
from the shoulder, you directed your men to
search for it, and they found it.
A. Very likely.
Q. Now, where did they find it?
A. In the spot where the statue was.
Q. You suppose—I want your memory?
A. 1 say on the spot where the statue was
found; I didn’t say I supposed.
Q. What did they search for, and with?
A. With their hands, I suppose.
Q. You did say, “ I suppose,” then?
A. Now—yes, sir.
Q. I don’t want you to suppose; I want your
recollection; I want you to state what you re-
member; do you remember what they searched
for and with? A. With their hands.
(2734) Q. With their hands? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you call that piece of the same color as
the head, or the same color as the body?
A. Of the same color as the body.
Q. How do you account for so much of that
shoulder consisting of plaster?
A. There is no plaster—very little plaster that
I know of, there.
Q. Well, there is some there?
A. There was some plaster that was used, but
then after the investigating committee it was not
the same.
Q. Then the investigations of the committee
resulted in a change of its condition ?
A. It became chipped—its edges; that was the
trouble with these statues; every time you at-
tack it, some of the edges goes with it; it is easy
enough to see that.
Q. When this little Venus comes from the bath,
do you expect the edges gone?
A. No, sir; but I expect to see it coming out
with the feet and the base exactly as I said it
would yesterday, and that nobody has tampered
with it.
Q. Do you say that cement disintegrates by
exposure to the air?
A. Yes, sir; in this country.
Mr. Choate: Cement?
Mr. Bangs: Yes, sir.
Mr. Choate : He didn’t say so.
(2735) Mr. Bangs: He did say so just now I
want him to put an interpretation to the testi-
mony in relation to that, because it has a doubt-
ful meaning to my mind.
Q. Do you say that cement disintegrates by
exposure to the air in this country?
A. No, sir; I say cement—joining two pieces
together disintegrates the edges of the two pieces
put together.
Q. Do you say that plaster of Paris disinte-
grates by exposure to the air?
A. By my word cement, I meant a composition
of cement, plaster and other things; I used it as
a generic word.
Q. So you have been using the word cement
to indicate a composition?
A. Yes, sir; it is a composition.
Q. What is the particular cement of which
you have been speaking composed of?
A. I don’t know; the repairer knows, but I
don’t.
Q. Have you never seen it made?
A. No, sir.
Q. He has never told you what it was made
of? A. No, sir.
Q. And you really don’t know the materials
which have been used in putting together parts
of statuary in the museum?
Q. I know it is a cement, but I don’t know
what it is composed of.
Q. It is a compound ?
A. Yes, sir; but I don’t know what it is, be-
cause the investigating committee asked the re-
pairer, and he did not want to say. It is his se-
cret.
(2736) Q. Is it his secret what the cement con-
sisted of?
A. So he said. He makes his living out of that,
I suppose.
Q. Do you claim the action of that cement on
the edges is mechanical or chemical; does it
arise simply from the pressure or contact?
A. I don’t say that the cement disintegrates
the stone. I say the atmosphere acting upon the
dampness, and the cement together, it disinte-
grates the edges; that is what I meant to say.
Whether it is the cement or the dampness or the
atmosphere, or all combined, I don’t know.
Q. Do you mean that the damp air gets some
quality from the cement which makes it disinte-
grate the edges?
A. That I don’t know.
Q. Well, do you know what you do mean?
A. I know- it is that when they were repaired
in Fourteenth street, with nothing else except
plaster of Paris, by Gehlen, they had disinte-
grated to a great extent, and that is a fact which
is uncontroverted; therefore, we removed all
that plaster of Paris in order to stop these dis-
integrations.
Q. Now, is that what you mean; that plaster
of Paris disintegrates tli'e edges?
A. I say the air, the dampness—everything to
gether—disintegrates them.
(2737) Q. Do you mean .that the air disinteg-
rates the edges when plaster of Paris is used on
them when not covered up?
A. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.