DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0013
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
7
14311. Do you think, taking the period for which
the Commissioners and Heads of Departments are
withdrawn from their other work, that that has been
an advantage ?—Part of the time, during the longer
conferences, was covered by gazetted holidays ; besides,
each Commissioner had his ordinary work. sent on to
him while the conference was sitting, and the Heads
of Departments did their own work in addition, and
so did the Secretaries. It was a great tax on the
officers, but I do not think the work suffered.
14312. On the other hand, a certain amount of
correspondence and detail work was saved ?—That
is so.
14313. Do the Commissioners extend that system
to their own divisions ?—Yes : each Commissioner has
a conference with his District Officers.
14314. Does that depend upon the will of the Com-
missioner, or is it laid down as part of his duty ?—It
is practically laid down.
14315. Has that system got so fast a hold in Bengal
that it now no longer depends upon the idiosyncrasy
of the particular Lieutenant-Governor ?—I could not
say that, because the system has existed at intervals
-before ; there have been cases in the past in which
conferences have been called to consider special
difficulties.
14316. Having been a Commissioner and also Chief
Secretary to Government, do you think that the system
is so advantageous that it should be made permanent ?
—I think it would be a very good thing.
14317. If it were established beyond the possibility
of alteration?—-Yes, I think so. Of course there is
this to be said ; that as time goes on and different
branches of the administration are overhauled and
discussed, the same number- of subjects will not come
up for discussion, and the work might be disposed of
in three or four days annually; but I think the
principle is a very sound one. Apart from the subjects
set down for discussion at the conference various local
matters are discussed by the Commissioners with the
officers at headquarters. Much time is thus saved ;
misunderstandings are removed, and Commissioners
are brought into closer touch with the Government.
14318. You rather wish us to understand that you
are not in favour of what may be called Advisory
Councils for District Officers ?—Not in the sense of a
rigid body. I think it ought to be very clearly understood
that every officer must consult the leaders of native
opinion on subjects of importance, especially subjects
connected with their religion, or racial customs, and
that he must be accessible to everybody, making them
realise and feel that he is glad to see them if they wish
to consult him.
14319. But you would deprecate the formation of a
formal body which would, perhaps, by its very con-
stitution prevent him having those informal consulta-
tions which he now ought to have, and perhaps does
have, with native gentlemen of position ?•—My feeling
is that it is never sound in Indian administration to go
too fast. I would begin by recognising that these in-
formal consultations must be held by District Officers,
and I would gradually proceed further if they are
found to be successful. But if you begin by establishing
formal Advisory Councils, and you find that for any
reason they are not a success, it would be a very awk-
ward thing to abandon them.
14320. If such bodies were formed would native
gentlemen of position be prepared to serve upon
them ?—-I think they would, but it would depend a
great deal on the extent to which their recommenda-
tions were acted upon : if they found that their
recommendations were not acted upon, it would do
more harm than good ; it would create a sense of
irritation.
14321. Therefore your view is that a mere Advisory
Council would be superfluous ?—At present. Proposals
have been made for widening the basis of representa-
tion on District Boards. I think if that is adopted,
the District Board would be a very useful body for the
Collector to consult informally about many matters.
14322. The interests of self-government would be
better forwarded, periaps, by the extension of the
powers of existing bo'iies than by the creation of new
ones ?—Partly, but in any case I would proceed slowly.
14323. But if that were the alternative you would
prefer the extension of existing powers rather than the
formation of pew bodies ?—Yes, and I also think it
would be better to have committees appointed ad hoc.
For instance, in case of plague you might appoint a
committee of people living in the town affected,
whereas you would discuss questions of policy and so
on with the big zamindars ; the same body would not
be suited for consultation in all matters.
14324. Therefore you would leave the Collector free
as he is at present ?—Yes, but I would insist very
strongly indeed on the necessity of his ascertaining and
consulting Indian opinion,—much more strongly than
it is now insisted on.
14325. Is it at all commonly done now ?—It is fairly
frequent. Very often when officers are asked for a
report it is stated that public opinion must be ascer-
tained. The best of the men of course always do
ascertain it, but some treat references as a matter of
routine, and deal with them without consulting
anybody.
14326 When you have appointments to make, is it a
fact that an officer has deliberately not associated him-
self with the people in his district and not consulted
local opinion held to count against him ?—It would
certainly be held to count against him in selecting him
for any special appointment ; but it has not hitherto
been held to count against him so much as it should
have done in the matter of promotion. I am strongly
of opinion that it should count against him in ordinary
promotion, even for the charge of a district.
14327. That is not the present practice ?—No. If a
man is a capable man and does his work well he gets
the appointment ; he is not passed over because he
has been inaccessible or wanting in consideration
towards public opinion.
14328. You tell us that there is less knowledge of
the vernacular now than there used to be ?—Yes.
14329. Is there less knowledge of Indian customs
and etiquette amongst officers in the Civil Service than
there used to be ?—I cannot say that. The decennial
census gives an opportunity for enquiries with regard
to marriage customs and so forth ; and Settlement
Officers make a point of finding out what they can
about the people, but as regards social intercourse there
may be less knowledge of Indian etiquette than there
was formerly.
14330. Is any effort made to teach young Civilians
when they first come out the importance of regarding
other people’s feelings and views ?-—It is one of the
points on which stress is laid in the letter sent to every
Collector of a district when a young Civilian is posted
to it. The matter is also dealt with at length in a
circular of the Board of Revenue.
14331. But is any effort made to see that the young
Civilian is taught these things ?—I cannot say that any
systematic effort is made.
14332. Is it desirable that it should be ?—It would
be very desirable.
14333. Has the Government of Bengal the means of
collecting and disseminating information upon these
points?-—It can only be done by the senior officers.
Young Civilians are generally sent to selected officers,
and the best officers no doubt to teach them.
14334. In this province do not most young Civilians
go to Bihar ?—Yes, the majority do. There are several
reasons. One is that Behar is the healthiest part of the
province ; it is thought that when a young Civilian first
joins it is necessary that he should get acclimatised ;
and it is only fair to appoint him to a healthy station.
14335. Is the language spoken in Bihar the language
most prevalent in Bengal ?—There are three languages
spoken in Bengal—Hindi in Bihar, Bengali in Bengal
proper, and Uriya in Orissa.
14336. Is Hindi as common in Bengal as the other
two ?—Hindi is by far the most widely spoken lan-
guage.
14337. So that an officer so far as knowledge of the
vernacular is concerned, is not disadvantaged by going
to Bihar?—Not in that way, but a man who learns
Bengali when he first comes out finds it easier to pick
up Hindi afterwards than the contrary process. A
man who is posted to Bihar very seldom becomes a
good Bengali scholar later on.
14338. Is that a disadvantage?—It is a great dis-
advantage, no doubt. The difficulty is to find fairly
healthy stations in Bengal proper to which to post
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Dec., 1907.
7
14311. Do you think, taking the period for which
the Commissioners and Heads of Departments are
withdrawn from their other work, that that has been
an advantage ?—Part of the time, during the longer
conferences, was covered by gazetted holidays ; besides,
each Commissioner had his ordinary work. sent on to
him while the conference was sitting, and the Heads
of Departments did their own work in addition, and
so did the Secretaries. It was a great tax on the
officers, but I do not think the work suffered.
14312. On the other hand, a certain amount of
correspondence and detail work was saved ?—That
is so.
14313. Do the Commissioners extend that system
to their own divisions ?—Yes : each Commissioner has
a conference with his District Officers.
14314. Does that depend upon the will of the Com-
missioner, or is it laid down as part of his duty ?—It
is practically laid down.
14315. Has that system got so fast a hold in Bengal
that it now no longer depends upon the idiosyncrasy
of the particular Lieutenant-Governor ?—I could not
say that, because the system has existed at intervals
-before ; there have been cases in the past in which
conferences have been called to consider special
difficulties.
14316. Having been a Commissioner and also Chief
Secretary to Government, do you think that the system
is so advantageous that it should be made permanent ?
—I think it would be a very good thing.
14317. If it were established beyond the possibility
of alteration?—-Yes, I think so. Of course there is
this to be said ; that as time goes on and different
branches of the administration are overhauled and
discussed, the same number- of subjects will not come
up for discussion, and the work might be disposed of
in three or four days annually; but I think the
principle is a very sound one. Apart from the subjects
set down for discussion at the conference various local
matters are discussed by the Commissioners with the
officers at headquarters. Much time is thus saved ;
misunderstandings are removed, and Commissioners
are brought into closer touch with the Government.
14318. You rather wish us to understand that you
are not in favour of what may be called Advisory
Councils for District Officers ?—Not in the sense of a
rigid body. I think it ought to be very clearly understood
that every officer must consult the leaders of native
opinion on subjects of importance, especially subjects
connected with their religion, or racial customs, and
that he must be accessible to everybody, making them
realise and feel that he is glad to see them if they wish
to consult him.
14319. But you would deprecate the formation of a
formal body which would, perhaps, by its very con-
stitution prevent him having those informal consulta-
tions which he now ought to have, and perhaps does
have, with native gentlemen of position ?•—My feeling
is that it is never sound in Indian administration to go
too fast. I would begin by recognising that these in-
formal consultations must be held by District Officers,
and I would gradually proceed further if they are
found to be successful. But if you begin by establishing
formal Advisory Councils, and you find that for any
reason they are not a success, it would be a very awk-
ward thing to abandon them.
14320. If such bodies were formed would native
gentlemen of position be prepared to serve upon
them ?—-I think they would, but it would depend a
great deal on the extent to which their recommenda-
tions were acted upon : if they found that their
recommendations were not acted upon, it would do
more harm than good ; it would create a sense of
irritation.
14321. Therefore your view is that a mere Advisory
Council would be superfluous ?—At present. Proposals
have been made for widening the basis of representa-
tion on District Boards. I think if that is adopted,
the District Board would be a very useful body for the
Collector to consult informally about many matters.
14322. The interests of self-government would be
better forwarded, periaps, by the extension of the
powers of existing bo'iies than by the creation of new
ones ?—Partly, but in any case I would proceed slowly.
14323. But if that were the alternative you would
prefer the extension of existing powers rather than the
formation of pew bodies ?—Yes, and I also think it
would be better to have committees appointed ad hoc.
For instance, in case of plague you might appoint a
committee of people living in the town affected,
whereas you would discuss questions of policy and so
on with the big zamindars ; the same body would not
be suited for consultation in all matters.
14324. Therefore you would leave the Collector free
as he is at present ?—Yes, but I would insist very
strongly indeed on the necessity of his ascertaining and
consulting Indian opinion,—much more strongly than
it is now insisted on.
14325. Is it at all commonly done now ?—It is fairly
frequent. Very often when officers are asked for a
report it is stated that public opinion must be ascer-
tained. The best of the men of course always do
ascertain it, but some treat references as a matter of
routine, and deal with them without consulting
anybody.
14326 When you have appointments to make, is it a
fact that an officer has deliberately not associated him-
self with the people in his district and not consulted
local opinion held to count against him ?—It would
certainly be held to count against him in selecting him
for any special appointment ; but it has not hitherto
been held to count against him so much as it should
have done in the matter of promotion. I am strongly
of opinion that it should count against him in ordinary
promotion, even for the charge of a district.
14327. That is not the present practice ?—No. If a
man is a capable man and does his work well he gets
the appointment ; he is not passed over because he
has been inaccessible or wanting in consideration
towards public opinion.
14328. You tell us that there is less knowledge of
the vernacular now than there used to be ?—Yes.
14329. Is there less knowledge of Indian customs
and etiquette amongst officers in the Civil Service than
there used to be ?—I cannot say that. The decennial
census gives an opportunity for enquiries with regard
to marriage customs and so forth ; and Settlement
Officers make a point of finding out what they can
about the people, but as regards social intercourse there
may be less knowledge of Indian etiquette than there
was formerly.
14330. Is any effort made to teach young Civilians
when they first come out the importance of regarding
other people’s feelings and views ?-—It is one of the
points on which stress is laid in the letter sent to every
Collector of a district when a young Civilian is posted
to it. The matter is also dealt with at length in a
circular of the Board of Revenue.
14331. But is any effort made to see that the young
Civilian is taught these things ?—I cannot say that any
systematic effort is made.
14332. Is it desirable that it should be ?—It would
be very desirable.
14333. Has the Government of Bengal the means of
collecting and disseminating information upon these
points?-—It can only be done by the senior officers.
Young Civilians are generally sent to selected officers,
and the best officers no doubt to teach them.
14334. In this province do not most young Civilians
go to Bihar ?—Yes, the majority do. There are several
reasons. One is that Behar is the healthiest part of the
province ; it is thought that when a young Civilian first
joins it is necessary that he should get acclimatised ;
and it is only fair to appoint him to a healthy station.
14335. Is the language spoken in Bihar the language
most prevalent in Bengal ?—There are three languages
spoken in Bengal—Hindi in Bihar, Bengali in Bengal
proper, and Uriya in Orissa.
14336. Is Hindi as common in Bengal as the other
two ?—Hindi is by far the most widely spoken lan-
guage.
14337. So that an officer so far as knowledge of the
vernacular is concerned, is not disadvantaged by going
to Bihar?—Not in that way, but a man who learns
Bengali when he first comes out finds it easier to pick
up Hindi afterwards than the contrary process. A
man who is posted to Bihar very seldom becomes a
good Bengali scholar later on.
14338. Is that a disadvantage?—It is a great dis-
advantage, no doubt. The difficulty is to find fairly
healthy stations in Bengal proper to which to post
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Dec., 1907.