DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0020
14
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
27 Deo., 1907.
The Hon.
Mr. JS. A.
Gait.
judge ; from his previous experience of the way in
which the Government of India deal with these things,
he knows perfectly well what the Government of
India would be likely to do if the case were to come
up to them.
14523. That would give him a good deal of power ?
—Yes, but he already has that.
14524. Are you prepared to allow the Local Gov-
ernment to say absolutely that such a fee is not a
recurring honorarium, and that the Accountant-
General should not raise any question ?—Yes ; it is
purely a matter of fact.
14525. Why are you not prepared to say generally
with regard to all regulations that the interpretation
of them should be left with the Local Government ?—■
* I think that is going rather further than I should be
prepared to do. I think the Accountant-General
ought to be able to say, “ You are straining the
interpretation ; the Government of India would not
approve of this sort of procedure.” Under the present
system, if a rule is infringed, we have to refer to the
Government of India, and in many cases they allow
the exception. The Accountant-General knows from
his experience whether they are likely to allow it, or
not ; therefore, I would give him power to ask for a
reference to the Government of India, but I would
tell him only to do so in cases where he thinks that
the Government of India would not approve of the
action taken.
14526. Do you say that the police are the adminis-
trative agents of the Sub-Divisional Officer?—They
are the agency through which the Sub-Divisional
Officer gets his information. I think it is unfortunate
that in Bengal we have no other agency.
14527. Can you suggest any remedy for that ?—No,
I am afraid I have none to suggest.
14528. You do not suggest the appointment of any
officer ?•—No, it would be too big a business altogether.
14529. So that although it is unfortunate, it is
unavoidable ?—It is almost unavoidable in the circum-
stances of Bengal.
14530. How long has the new procedure as regards
the Board of Revenue of which you have spoken been
working ?—About four years.
14531. Has it been a success ?—It has brought the
Board into much closer touch with the Government.
It has certainly expedited work, and it has prevented
misunderstanding. The whole of the papers come up
now, and if an official letter is incomplete you can
remedy the omission by reference to the file, so that
there is no correspondence backwards and forwards,
and orders are thus issued more promptly. Therefore,
so far, it has been distinctly a success. It imposes,
however, a certain amount of work upon the Secretary
to Government which was formerly done by the
member of the Board.
14532. Does it mean in practice at all that the
Board’s Secretary becomes, so to speak, Under-
secretary to the Secretary to Government ?—To a
certain extent, undoubtedly. It does not, however,
alter his work in any way ; instead of submitting the
case to the member, he submits it to the Secretary to
Government.
14533. He submits it as an Under-Secretary might ?
—Yes ; the Under-Secretary to Government is elimi-
nated from the chain.
14534. And for all practical purposes he is the
Under-Secretary ?—Yes ; or Deputy Secretary ; of
course a great part of his work is not seen by the
Government Secretary at all. The bulk of this work
is connected with ordinary revenue administration, for
which the Board are responsible themselves. It is only
in “ Government cases,” where a reference has to be
made to Government, that the Board’s Secretary
submits cases to the Government Secretary.
14535. We have been told that the number of rules
and regulations, speaking generally, is excessive, and
that the tendency is to pass a rule or regulation to
cover every conceivable case which might arise, rather
than to leave matters to the discretion of individual
officers. I should like your opinion with regard to
that ?—I do not think I can agree with that altogether.
In some directions the rules have reduced work a good
deal.
14536. You would not say that, regulations in
practice were passed upon matters which were too
minute to be regulated by a rule ?—I do not think I
should say so, generally speaking. It is easy enough
to turn up a rule.
14537. Then is it your opinion that that criticism is
not a fair one ?—That is my opinion. I do not think
the rules are too elaborate, and in fact I think it is
desirable, when further powers are delegated, to lay
down the principles which should be followed in
exercising those powers.
14538. Would you agree that it is desirable to allow
a large amount of initiative to an individual officer ?—
Undoubtedly, but in dealing with the case, for instance,
of allowing an officer to take his horse by train at
Government expense, it is desirable to specify the
circumstances under which this should be done ; other-
wise there will be no uniformity of procedure. I do
not think, as a rule, the regulations are too detailed,
but they are applied too rigidly.
14539. It has been alleged that officers spend most
of their time in trying to find out precedents, what do
you say as to that ?—I do not agree with it, and
another thing is you can always ask the office to quote
the rule if it is one you are not familiar with.
14540. Is your position with regard to the inter-
pretation of rules and regulations that rules and
regulations to be framed under an Act should be
made by the Local Government ?—That is not the
point ; the point is, supposing the Local Government
propose to introduce some new scheme which has to be
submitted to the Government of India, the Govern-
ment of India should pass orders only on the general
principles, and should leave the decision as to the details
to the Local Government, after consideration of any
criticism that may be made by the Government of India.
14541. Another way of putting that would be that
the Government of India should lay down general
principles in an Act, but that the regulations or rules
for the carrying of them out should be left to the Local
Government?—! think that rules which are applicable
to the whole of India might very well be laid down by
the Government of India. I was not thinking so much
of rules under Acts, as of general administrative work.
14542. Would you agree that there are a large
number of regulations of a more or less minor type—-
certain regulations which could not be called general
principles, but which it is desirable to have uniform ?
—Undoubtedly ; for instance, under the Explosives
Act, it is most desirable that the rules should be issued
by the Government of India.
14543. What is the procedure to-day with regard
to matters of that sort ? Are uniform rules issued by
the Government of India ?—In a great mauy things
they are. They prepare the draft rules which are
circulated to the Local Governments and published in
the Gazette for criticism ; after the Government of
India have received all the criticisms the rules are
considered and brought out.
14544. Is that a satisfactory procedure ?—Yes.
14545. Does it not lead to great delay ?—I do not
think delays are so much to be deprecated when it is a
case of elaborating rules under which action is to be
taken in future ; these rules merely replace existing
rules of procedure and the change is seldom very
urgent. It is in the disposal of individual cases in
which prompt action is called for that delays are so
harassing.
14546. In tho case of explosives, for example, would'
it be a good thing to have a small conference of the
officers of the different Governments to deal with the
subject and so reduce correspondence and delay ?—It
very often happens that the officers of the different
Governments know very little about special subjects
like that ; for instance, with regard to the rules under
the Explosives Act, the Secretary is not an expert in
explosives, and his personal opinion would not be of
much use ; he would first have to obtain his informa-
tion from other people qualified to advise.
14547. The Local Government to-day can put
forward its views in writing, but there is no oppor-
tunity for general discussion ?—(No.
14548. Would that not be a good thing in regard to
the rules and regulations with reference to explosives ?
—I do not think so ; I think that the matter can be
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
27 Deo., 1907.
The Hon.
Mr. JS. A.
Gait.
judge ; from his previous experience of the way in
which the Government of India deal with these things,
he knows perfectly well what the Government of
India would be likely to do if the case were to come
up to them.
14523. That would give him a good deal of power ?
—Yes, but he already has that.
14524. Are you prepared to allow the Local Gov-
ernment to say absolutely that such a fee is not a
recurring honorarium, and that the Accountant-
General should not raise any question ?—Yes ; it is
purely a matter of fact.
14525. Why are you not prepared to say generally
with regard to all regulations that the interpretation
of them should be left with the Local Government ?—■
* I think that is going rather further than I should be
prepared to do. I think the Accountant-General
ought to be able to say, “ You are straining the
interpretation ; the Government of India would not
approve of this sort of procedure.” Under the present
system, if a rule is infringed, we have to refer to the
Government of India, and in many cases they allow
the exception. The Accountant-General knows from
his experience whether they are likely to allow it, or
not ; therefore, I would give him power to ask for a
reference to the Government of India, but I would
tell him only to do so in cases where he thinks that
the Government of India would not approve of the
action taken.
14526. Do you say that the police are the adminis-
trative agents of the Sub-Divisional Officer?—They
are the agency through which the Sub-Divisional
Officer gets his information. I think it is unfortunate
that in Bengal we have no other agency.
14527. Can you suggest any remedy for that ?—No,
I am afraid I have none to suggest.
14528. You do not suggest the appointment of any
officer ?•—No, it would be too big a business altogether.
14529. So that although it is unfortunate, it is
unavoidable ?—It is almost unavoidable in the circum-
stances of Bengal.
14530. How long has the new procedure as regards
the Board of Revenue of which you have spoken been
working ?—About four years.
14531. Has it been a success ?—It has brought the
Board into much closer touch with the Government.
It has certainly expedited work, and it has prevented
misunderstanding. The whole of the papers come up
now, and if an official letter is incomplete you can
remedy the omission by reference to the file, so that
there is no correspondence backwards and forwards,
and orders are thus issued more promptly. Therefore,
so far, it has been distinctly a success. It imposes,
however, a certain amount of work upon the Secretary
to Government which was formerly done by the
member of the Board.
14532. Does it mean in practice at all that the
Board’s Secretary becomes, so to speak, Under-
secretary to the Secretary to Government ?—To a
certain extent, undoubtedly. It does not, however,
alter his work in any way ; instead of submitting the
case to the member, he submits it to the Secretary to
Government.
14533. He submits it as an Under-Secretary might ?
—Yes ; the Under-Secretary to Government is elimi-
nated from the chain.
14534. And for all practical purposes he is the
Under-Secretary ?—Yes ; or Deputy Secretary ; of
course a great part of his work is not seen by the
Government Secretary at all. The bulk of this work
is connected with ordinary revenue administration, for
which the Board are responsible themselves. It is only
in “ Government cases,” where a reference has to be
made to Government, that the Board’s Secretary
submits cases to the Government Secretary.
14535. We have been told that the number of rules
and regulations, speaking generally, is excessive, and
that the tendency is to pass a rule or regulation to
cover every conceivable case which might arise, rather
than to leave matters to the discretion of individual
officers. I should like your opinion with regard to
that ?—I do not think I can agree with that altogether.
In some directions the rules have reduced work a good
deal.
14536. You would not say that, regulations in
practice were passed upon matters which were too
minute to be regulated by a rule ?—I do not think I
should say so, generally speaking. It is easy enough
to turn up a rule.
14537. Then is it your opinion that that criticism is
not a fair one ?—That is my opinion. I do not think
the rules are too elaborate, and in fact I think it is
desirable, when further powers are delegated, to lay
down the principles which should be followed in
exercising those powers.
14538. Would you agree that it is desirable to allow
a large amount of initiative to an individual officer ?—
Undoubtedly, but in dealing with the case, for instance,
of allowing an officer to take his horse by train at
Government expense, it is desirable to specify the
circumstances under which this should be done ; other-
wise there will be no uniformity of procedure. I do
not think, as a rule, the regulations are too detailed,
but they are applied too rigidly.
14539. It has been alleged that officers spend most
of their time in trying to find out precedents, what do
you say as to that ?—I do not agree with it, and
another thing is you can always ask the office to quote
the rule if it is one you are not familiar with.
14540. Is your position with regard to the inter-
pretation of rules and regulations that rules and
regulations to be framed under an Act should be
made by the Local Government ?—That is not the
point ; the point is, supposing the Local Government
propose to introduce some new scheme which has to be
submitted to the Government of India, the Govern-
ment of India should pass orders only on the general
principles, and should leave the decision as to the details
to the Local Government, after consideration of any
criticism that may be made by the Government of India.
14541. Another way of putting that would be that
the Government of India should lay down general
principles in an Act, but that the regulations or rules
for the carrying of them out should be left to the Local
Government?—! think that rules which are applicable
to the whole of India might very well be laid down by
the Government of India. I was not thinking so much
of rules under Acts, as of general administrative work.
14542. Would you agree that there are a large
number of regulations of a more or less minor type—-
certain regulations which could not be called general
principles, but which it is desirable to have uniform ?
—Undoubtedly ; for instance, under the Explosives
Act, it is most desirable that the rules should be issued
by the Government of India.
14543. What is the procedure to-day with regard
to matters of that sort ? Are uniform rules issued by
the Government of India ?—In a great mauy things
they are. They prepare the draft rules which are
circulated to the Local Governments and published in
the Gazette for criticism ; after the Government of
India have received all the criticisms the rules are
considered and brought out.
14544. Is that a satisfactory procedure ?—Yes.
14545. Does it not lead to great delay ?—I do not
think delays are so much to be deprecated when it is a
case of elaborating rules under which action is to be
taken in future ; these rules merely replace existing
rules of procedure and the change is seldom very
urgent. It is in the disposal of individual cases in
which prompt action is called for that delays are so
harassing.
14546. In tho case of explosives, for example, would'
it be a good thing to have a small conference of the
officers of the different Governments to deal with the
subject and so reduce correspondence and delay ?—It
very often happens that the officers of the different
Governments know very little about special subjects
like that ; for instance, with regard to the rules under
the Explosives Act, the Secretary is not an expert in
explosives, and his personal opinion would not be of
much use ; he would first have to obtain his informa-
tion from other people qualified to advise.
14547. The Local Government to-day can put
forward its views in writing, but there is no oppor-
tunity for general discussion ?—(No.
14548. Would that not be a good thing in regard to
the rules and regulations with reference to explosives ?
—I do not think so ; I think that the matter can be