DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0028
22
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
'The Hon.
Mr. H. C.
Streatfeild,
27 Dec., 1907.
delay, but it might have been taken for granted that
the Local Government would be able to deal with a
point of that kind.
14722. But upon the details of education, do you
imply that they are supersensitive ?—No, I do not,
and I am not prepared really to say that in any par ■
ticular case the objections of the Government of
India have been unreasonable, but a large number of
schemes have come back during the six months I have
been in the office and the experience has been such as
decidedly to discourage the sending up of big schemes.
14723. Do you say that a large number of matters
have come back to you in the last six months ?—Four
or five matters. Upon smaller matters, such as the
salary proposed for a Head Mistress and things of
that kind.
14724. Do you know whether that would be because
there were similar classes employed by other provinces
at a rate similar to that which you proposed should be
paid?—No, I think in that particular case of the
Training College for girls at Patna the idea of the
Government of India was that a lower salary would
have been sufficient, and that a lady employed in the
country would be as good as a lady got out from
home.
14725. Is the Director of Public Instruction inclined
to correspond, without your cognizance, with the
Director-General of Education ?—I have never heard
of such a case.
14726. As a matter of fact, does such correspondence
as he carries on with your knowledge shorten your
labours ?—-I do not think, while I have been in the
office, there has been any correspondence with the
Director-General, which has come to my knowledge at
all.
14727. Or any conference ?—Just recently there has
been a conference which tended to help matters, I
think.
14728. Would you alter the title of the Director-
General to that of Adviser-General, as rather connoting
what his duties ought to be ?—That might be of
advantage.
14729. Have you ever found in disciplinary matters
the Director-General has trenched unduly upon the
f unctions of the Local G overnment ?—1 have only
been six months in the Department, and during that
time the permanent Director-General has been on
leave, so that nothing of the kind has come up.
14730. So far as you know, has there been any trace
of it in former times?—No.
14731. Do matters connected with the Court of
Wards come before you ?—No.
14732. You say that the final authority as regards
the Court of Wards work might rest with the Board
of Revenue ; whom does it rest with now ?—The final
authority is the Board of Revenue, and my proposals
were that they should be brought into direct touch
and control of the whole thing. I think the Board of
Revenue should be brought into control through a
special officer who should be advised by the Com-
missioner and District Officers, but that these officers
should no longer be directly responsible, as they now
are, for the management of any estate.
14733. Would that not tend to put a fifth wheel
into the coach ; things must go through the Collector
and Commissioner ?—The thing I was principally
thinking of was litigation in which the Court of
Wards is concerned. In one case 1 had to enquire
into, and immediately come to a decision upon, a legal
matter, although I am not in the least a specialist as
regards Civil Law matters.
14734. Was it a case of a question of law, or a
question of fact, in regard to the administration of
the estate ?—It was a question of debts, and whether
we should admit certain claims.
14735. Surely that is more a question of common
sense than of law ?—No, there were some very com-
plicated matters to deal with. It is principally with a
view’ to relieving the Collector of what, by experience,
takes up a great deal of his time that 1 make this
proposal.
14736. And you would like to see an expert Director
at headquarters?—Yes. It is a very special branch
of work.
14737. Have you been a Commissioner ?—Only for
four months.
14738. Is the idea of separate budgets for districts
and divisions quite impracticable ?—I do not think
it would be practicable. It would require petty
Secretariats, as it were, to keep control of the budget,
the expenditure and so on, and there would be a lack
of continuity generally. I would rather see the present
system continued.
14739. Are transfers too frequent and are there
difficulties with regard to the vernacular ?—-Yes.
14740. Are many transfers caused by illness and
officers going on sick leave ?—A considerable number
certainly are due to such causes.
14741. Is that due in any way to the fact that
officers stay out here too long on their first appoint-
ment. They come out here and have to stay for eight
years, have they not without leave other than privilege
leave ?—Yes.
14742. Is that top long to stay in the country
straight on end ?—I cannot think of a case of break-
down attributable to that fact.
14743. But does it lead to a man getting attacks of
fever and so on ?—After four or five years a man
should certainly have six months’ leave.
14744. Are there many officers in this province who
get as much as two years’ leave straight on end ?—I
have had it myself, but 18 months is more usual.
14745. Is that too long a time to be away, from the
Government point of view?—No, I do not think so.
14746. Has a man the same command of the
vernacular on his return, and the same knowledge of
what is going on, as he had before ?—Of course he has
lost touch with regard to what has gone on in the
interval, but as regards the work of his district I do
not think there is any difficulty. In fact, he seldom
returns to the same district after long leave.
14747. Should there be greater selection and the
exercise of more discretion in regard to promotions
and so on ?—Considerable safeguards are necessary, in
order that there should not be a possibility of any idea
getting abroad that one bad report might seriously
affect a man’s whole career, and lead to his being
shelved.
14748. Do you think the Local Government are
perfectly capable of. and ought to exercise, a consider-
able power of selection ?—Yes, I certainly do.
14749. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) With regard to the
desirability of the Government of India control for
the purpose of ensuring continuity, does that mean
that you have practically come to the conclusion that
you think a Lieutenant-Governorship does not make
for continuity of policy ?—I think it is very possible
that it may not.
14750. Do you mean that a man comes and has his
way for five years, then goes, and is replaced by
another who has his way for five years ?—1 do not say
that it is so, as a matter of experience, but there is a
possible tendency to that result.
14751. That result would, of course, be less marked
if the Government consisted of a Council ?—Yes, it
would probably be less marked in that case.
14752. Is your position as to the relations between
the Surpreme Government and the Local Government
that the Government of India should pass orders as
to matters of principle, but not as to matters of
detail ?—1 think where a scheme is before them, and
they require the details, they should examine them
fully.
14753. Do you mean that they should pass their
orders as to principle, and deal with the details by
suggestion ?—Yes, that is my idea.
14754. Should their expert advisers be bound by the
same sort of self-denying ordinance?—If you mean
the Directors-General and so on, I think they should
be certainly consulted as to matters of detail.
14755. Should the Local Government concerned see
what they write ?—I should be inclined to recommend
consultation with the Director-General by the local
Head of the Department before the Government
expressed its opinion.
14756. How long would it take an expert adviser
of the Government of India to become able to advise
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
'The Hon.
Mr. H. C.
Streatfeild,
27 Dec., 1907.
delay, but it might have been taken for granted that
the Local Government would be able to deal with a
point of that kind.
14722. But upon the details of education, do you
imply that they are supersensitive ?—No, I do not,
and I am not prepared really to say that in any par ■
ticular case the objections of the Government of
India have been unreasonable, but a large number of
schemes have come back during the six months I have
been in the office and the experience has been such as
decidedly to discourage the sending up of big schemes.
14723. Do you say that a large number of matters
have come back to you in the last six months ?—Four
or five matters. Upon smaller matters, such as the
salary proposed for a Head Mistress and things of
that kind.
14724. Do you know whether that would be because
there were similar classes employed by other provinces
at a rate similar to that which you proposed should be
paid?—No, I think in that particular case of the
Training College for girls at Patna the idea of the
Government of India was that a lower salary would
have been sufficient, and that a lady employed in the
country would be as good as a lady got out from
home.
14725. Is the Director of Public Instruction inclined
to correspond, without your cognizance, with the
Director-General of Education ?—I have never heard
of such a case.
14726. As a matter of fact, does such correspondence
as he carries on with your knowledge shorten your
labours ?—-I do not think, while I have been in the
office, there has been any correspondence with the
Director-General, which has come to my knowledge at
all.
14727. Or any conference ?—Just recently there has
been a conference which tended to help matters, I
think.
14728. Would you alter the title of the Director-
General to that of Adviser-General, as rather connoting
what his duties ought to be ?—That might be of
advantage.
14729. Have you ever found in disciplinary matters
the Director-General has trenched unduly upon the
f unctions of the Local G overnment ?—1 have only
been six months in the Department, and during that
time the permanent Director-General has been on
leave, so that nothing of the kind has come up.
14730. So far as you know, has there been any trace
of it in former times?—No.
14731. Do matters connected with the Court of
Wards come before you ?—No.
14732. You say that the final authority as regards
the Court of Wards work might rest with the Board
of Revenue ; whom does it rest with now ?—The final
authority is the Board of Revenue, and my proposals
were that they should be brought into direct touch
and control of the whole thing. I think the Board of
Revenue should be brought into control through a
special officer who should be advised by the Com-
missioner and District Officers, but that these officers
should no longer be directly responsible, as they now
are, for the management of any estate.
14733. Would that not tend to put a fifth wheel
into the coach ; things must go through the Collector
and Commissioner ?—The thing I was principally
thinking of was litigation in which the Court of
Wards is concerned. In one case 1 had to enquire
into, and immediately come to a decision upon, a legal
matter, although I am not in the least a specialist as
regards Civil Law matters.
14734. Was it a case of a question of law, or a
question of fact, in regard to the administration of
the estate ?—It was a question of debts, and whether
we should admit certain claims.
14735. Surely that is more a question of common
sense than of law ?—No, there were some very com-
plicated matters to deal with. It is principally with a
view’ to relieving the Collector of what, by experience,
takes up a great deal of his time that 1 make this
proposal.
14736. And you would like to see an expert Director
at headquarters?—Yes. It is a very special branch
of work.
14737. Have you been a Commissioner ?—Only for
four months.
14738. Is the idea of separate budgets for districts
and divisions quite impracticable ?—I do not think
it would be practicable. It would require petty
Secretariats, as it were, to keep control of the budget,
the expenditure and so on, and there would be a lack
of continuity generally. I would rather see the present
system continued.
14739. Are transfers too frequent and are there
difficulties with regard to the vernacular ?—-Yes.
14740. Are many transfers caused by illness and
officers going on sick leave ?—A considerable number
certainly are due to such causes.
14741. Is that due in any way to the fact that
officers stay out here too long on their first appoint-
ment. They come out here and have to stay for eight
years, have they not without leave other than privilege
leave ?—Yes.
14742. Is that top long to stay in the country
straight on end ?—I cannot think of a case of break-
down attributable to that fact.
14743. But does it lead to a man getting attacks of
fever and so on ?—After four or five years a man
should certainly have six months’ leave.
14744. Are there many officers in this province who
get as much as two years’ leave straight on end ?—I
have had it myself, but 18 months is more usual.
14745. Is that too long a time to be away, from the
Government point of view?—No, I do not think so.
14746. Has a man the same command of the
vernacular on his return, and the same knowledge of
what is going on, as he had before ?—Of course he has
lost touch with regard to what has gone on in the
interval, but as regards the work of his district I do
not think there is any difficulty. In fact, he seldom
returns to the same district after long leave.
14747. Should there be greater selection and the
exercise of more discretion in regard to promotions
and so on ?—Considerable safeguards are necessary, in
order that there should not be a possibility of any idea
getting abroad that one bad report might seriously
affect a man’s whole career, and lead to his being
shelved.
14748. Do you think the Local Government are
perfectly capable of. and ought to exercise, a consider-
able power of selection ?—Yes, I certainly do.
14749. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) With regard to the
desirability of the Government of India control for
the purpose of ensuring continuity, does that mean
that you have practically come to the conclusion that
you think a Lieutenant-Governorship does not make
for continuity of policy ?—I think it is very possible
that it may not.
14750. Do you mean that a man comes and has his
way for five years, then goes, and is replaced by
another who has his way for five years ?—1 do not say
that it is so, as a matter of experience, but there is a
possible tendency to that result.
14751. That result would, of course, be less marked
if the Government consisted of a Council ?—Yes, it
would probably be less marked in that case.
14752. Is your position as to the relations between
the Surpreme Government and the Local Government
that the Government of India should pass orders as
to matters of principle, but not as to matters of
detail ?—1 think where a scheme is before them, and
they require the details, they should examine them
fully.
14753. Do you mean that they should pass their
orders as to principle, and deal with the details by
suggestion ?—Yes, that is my idea.
14754. Should their expert advisers be bound by the
same sort of self-denying ordinance?—If you mean
the Directors-General and so on, I think they should
be certainly consulted as to matters of detail.
14755. Should the Local Government concerned see
what they write ?—I should be inclined to recommend
consultation with the Director-General by the local
Head of the Department before the Government
expressed its opinion.
14756. How long would it take an expert adviser
of the Government of India to become able to advise