DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0032
26
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. C. E. A.
Oldham.
21 Dec., 1907.
provincial Government. I am not prepared to say
that Local Governments should be given borrowing
powers.
At all events in respect of the provisions of the
Civil Service Regulations in regard to travelling
allowances and pensions, all the powers now vested
in the Government of India nrght, without objection,
be delegated to the Local Government. In regard to
other restrictions imposed by the codes and regulations,
what is wanted is not the abrogation of such restric-
tions, which are salutary on the whole, but that a
Local Government should be allowed a wider discretion
in giving effect to the rules and in sanctioning a
departure from them in special cases for adequate
reasons.
In regard to the application to local conditions of
general lines of policy laid down by the Government
of India, it should be recognised that the Imperial
Government should not interfere with the discretion
of a Local Government in matters of detail, except
by way of suggestion.
The most satisfactory way of dealing with any
relaxations which may be comtemplated of restrictions
imposed by law or by rules having the force of law,
would be by a general Act authorising the Local
Government to delegate powers reserved to the Local
Government or other authority to subordinate author-
ities where, in the opinion of Government, such
delegation might be made without detriment to the
public interest. It would be a good thing if the
Local Government had authority to vest with powers,
at present reserved for higher authorities, specific
officers subordinate to such authorities in whom
Government could place full confidence that they
would exercise those powers with propriety and
discretion. This would act as an incentive to officers
to merit by their work and conduct the confidence of
their Government.
Occasionally cases do occur which point to a tendency
to consider matters too much from a purely depart-
mental standpoint, but such cases are rare. The best
remedy is to select for Secretariat appointments
officers with adequate mufassal experience and of tried
administrative capacity.
The proper sphere of work of Directors and
Inspectors-General is to inspect and to make sugges-
tions. In cases in which proposals made by a Local
Government are submitted to such an officer, who is
regarded as a specialist, and where his recommendations
are against the proposals of the Local Government,
the Local Government should be allowed an oppor-
tunity of seeing the views expressed before its
proposals are overruled by the Imperial Government.
It will be highly undesirable to lay down that no
appeal should be admitted unless accompanied by a
certificate from the authority passing the order
appealed against that reasonable grounds of appeal
exist. I would not curtail the right of appeal at
present existing.
In this province allotments are now made to
Commissioners of Divisions to enable them to make
grants on the spot for purposes of a public nature, or
to remedy small defects brought to their notice at the
time of inspection, with a view to avoiding corres-
pondence and consequent delay. Small grants might
be made on the same principle to District Officers.
Sufficient weight is not always given to the views of
the Commissioner in matters other than those
appertaining to the Land Revenue Department. It
should be definitely understood that the Commissioner
of a Division has full authority to take cognizance of
any irregularities or other matters calling for remedy
in any department of the administration that may
come to his notice, and either to deal with them
himself, or advise the departmental authorities, or the
Government, how they should be dealt with.
Opportunities of personal contact with the people
undoubtedly exist, though Executive Officers are
sometimes prevented by excessive clerical duties from
availing themselves of them ; but the chief obstacles
are insufficient acquaintance with the vernacular and
the customs and prejudices of the people, and, in the
case of some officers, exclusiveness. I consider that
far more attention should be paid to the acquisition
by young Executive Officers of a thorough knowledge
of the language and acquaintance with the religious
and social customs and feelings of the people.
Transfers are at present undesirably frequent. The
staff is insufficient. There should be a senior Joint-
Magistrate and Covenanted Deputy Collector at the
headquarters of almost every district in the province.
This is a matter of the utmost importance.
Municipalities have ample powers under the existing
law. In the case of District Boards, if theii- consti-
tution be amended so as to give due representation to
the various classes of the community, further powers
might perhaps be given them. My experience of
Local' Boards is that they are ordinarily of little or
no use. Something might be done in the direction of
giving greater powers to the village community. In
this province the panchayats might be further utilised,
especially with a view to arbitration in petty criminal
and civil cases.
14845. Before you became Financial Secretary, you
were Director of Agriculture ?-—I was.
14846. Is there any connection between your duties
as Financial Secretary and your duties as Director of
Agriculture ?—No, except from a finance point of view.
14847. Probably the training you received as Direc-
tor of Agriculture is entirely thrown away in your
present department ?—I cannot say that, because one
acquires general experience of the province as Director
of Agriculture.
14848. Do your duties as Director of Agriculture
help you in dealing with financial questions ?■—In
purely financial questions, they do not.
14849. Previously to that you had been Under-
secretary in the Financial and Municipal Depart-
ments ?—Yes.
14850. Were your duties as Under-Secretary in
those departments of any use to you as Director of
Agriculture ?—Not specially.
14851. Looking at it from a Government point of
view, might it have been very much better to have
kept you either on the financial side or on the agri-
cultural side when you were in the Secretariat ?—I do
not see how I could have been kept on the financial
side in the Secretariat, because the term of an Under-
secretary is limited to three years.
14852. When you were brought back, would it have
been more useful to have brought you back to the
Financial Department ?—I have been brought back
to the Financial Department; the Agricultural
Department is not part of the Secretariat ; it is a
department under the Board of Revenue.
14853. It is rather a distinction without a difference ?
—It is not a department of the Secretariat.
14854. I understand that you are Secretary, not
only with regard to finance, but for municipal and
Local Self-Government ?—Yes.
14855. And also for medical, plague, sanitary mat-
ters, and inter alia, the Botanical Gardens ?—Yes.
14856. Do you find it difficult to combine all these
duties ? Take, for instance, municipal questions;
you have practically, I suppose, all the municipalities,
with the exception of Calcutta, under your observa-
tion ?—Yes, and matters come up from the Calcutta
Municipality as well.
14857. Are the municipal budgets submitted to
you ?—The Calcutta Corporation budget is not sub-
mitted to Government.
14858. Are the budgets of the other municipalities
submitted to you?-—We review the accounts in the
annual reports ; they do not come up to Government
for sanction. They are dealt with by the Divisional
Commissioners.
14859. What is the composition of the Sanitary
Board in Bengal ?—It consists of the Second Member
of the Board of Revenue, the Secretary of the Public
Works Department, the Secretary of the Irrigation
Department, the Sanitary Commissioner, and the
Sanitary Engineer.
14860. Are its proceedings sent to you ?—Yes, if
necessary ; if the Board has to refer anything to
Government.
14861. Have they any power of decision?—Prac-
tically none.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. C. E. A.
Oldham.
21 Dec., 1907.
provincial Government. I am not prepared to say
that Local Governments should be given borrowing
powers.
At all events in respect of the provisions of the
Civil Service Regulations in regard to travelling
allowances and pensions, all the powers now vested
in the Government of India nrght, without objection,
be delegated to the Local Government. In regard to
other restrictions imposed by the codes and regulations,
what is wanted is not the abrogation of such restric-
tions, which are salutary on the whole, but that a
Local Government should be allowed a wider discretion
in giving effect to the rules and in sanctioning a
departure from them in special cases for adequate
reasons.
In regard to the application to local conditions of
general lines of policy laid down by the Government
of India, it should be recognised that the Imperial
Government should not interfere with the discretion
of a Local Government in matters of detail, except
by way of suggestion.
The most satisfactory way of dealing with any
relaxations which may be comtemplated of restrictions
imposed by law or by rules having the force of law,
would be by a general Act authorising the Local
Government to delegate powers reserved to the Local
Government or other authority to subordinate author-
ities where, in the opinion of Government, such
delegation might be made without detriment to the
public interest. It would be a good thing if the
Local Government had authority to vest with powers,
at present reserved for higher authorities, specific
officers subordinate to such authorities in whom
Government could place full confidence that they
would exercise those powers with propriety and
discretion. This would act as an incentive to officers
to merit by their work and conduct the confidence of
their Government.
Occasionally cases do occur which point to a tendency
to consider matters too much from a purely depart-
mental standpoint, but such cases are rare. The best
remedy is to select for Secretariat appointments
officers with adequate mufassal experience and of tried
administrative capacity.
The proper sphere of work of Directors and
Inspectors-General is to inspect and to make sugges-
tions. In cases in which proposals made by a Local
Government are submitted to such an officer, who is
regarded as a specialist, and where his recommendations
are against the proposals of the Local Government,
the Local Government should be allowed an oppor-
tunity of seeing the views expressed before its
proposals are overruled by the Imperial Government.
It will be highly undesirable to lay down that no
appeal should be admitted unless accompanied by a
certificate from the authority passing the order
appealed against that reasonable grounds of appeal
exist. I would not curtail the right of appeal at
present existing.
In this province allotments are now made to
Commissioners of Divisions to enable them to make
grants on the spot for purposes of a public nature, or
to remedy small defects brought to their notice at the
time of inspection, with a view to avoiding corres-
pondence and consequent delay. Small grants might
be made on the same principle to District Officers.
Sufficient weight is not always given to the views of
the Commissioner in matters other than those
appertaining to the Land Revenue Department. It
should be definitely understood that the Commissioner
of a Division has full authority to take cognizance of
any irregularities or other matters calling for remedy
in any department of the administration that may
come to his notice, and either to deal with them
himself, or advise the departmental authorities, or the
Government, how they should be dealt with.
Opportunities of personal contact with the people
undoubtedly exist, though Executive Officers are
sometimes prevented by excessive clerical duties from
availing themselves of them ; but the chief obstacles
are insufficient acquaintance with the vernacular and
the customs and prejudices of the people, and, in the
case of some officers, exclusiveness. I consider that
far more attention should be paid to the acquisition
by young Executive Officers of a thorough knowledge
of the language and acquaintance with the religious
and social customs and feelings of the people.
Transfers are at present undesirably frequent. The
staff is insufficient. There should be a senior Joint-
Magistrate and Covenanted Deputy Collector at the
headquarters of almost every district in the province.
This is a matter of the utmost importance.
Municipalities have ample powers under the existing
law. In the case of District Boards, if theii- consti-
tution be amended so as to give due representation to
the various classes of the community, further powers
might perhaps be given them. My experience of
Local' Boards is that they are ordinarily of little or
no use. Something might be done in the direction of
giving greater powers to the village community. In
this province the panchayats might be further utilised,
especially with a view to arbitration in petty criminal
and civil cases.
14845. Before you became Financial Secretary, you
were Director of Agriculture ?-—I was.
14846. Is there any connection between your duties
as Financial Secretary and your duties as Director of
Agriculture ?—No, except from a finance point of view.
14847. Probably the training you received as Direc-
tor of Agriculture is entirely thrown away in your
present department ?—I cannot say that, because one
acquires general experience of the province as Director
of Agriculture.
14848. Do your duties as Director of Agriculture
help you in dealing with financial questions ?■—In
purely financial questions, they do not.
14849. Previously to that you had been Under-
secretary in the Financial and Municipal Depart-
ments ?—Yes.
14850. Were your duties as Under-Secretary in
those departments of any use to you as Director of
Agriculture ?—Not specially.
14851. Looking at it from a Government point of
view, might it have been very much better to have
kept you either on the financial side or on the agri-
cultural side when you were in the Secretariat ?—I do
not see how I could have been kept on the financial
side in the Secretariat, because the term of an Under-
secretary is limited to three years.
14852. When you were brought back, would it have
been more useful to have brought you back to the
Financial Department ?—I have been brought back
to the Financial Department; the Agricultural
Department is not part of the Secretariat ; it is a
department under the Board of Revenue.
14853. It is rather a distinction without a difference ?
—It is not a department of the Secretariat.
14854. I understand that you are Secretary, not
only with regard to finance, but for municipal and
Local Self-Government ?—Yes.
14855. And also for medical, plague, sanitary mat-
ters, and inter alia, the Botanical Gardens ?—Yes.
14856. Do you find it difficult to combine all these
duties ? Take, for instance, municipal questions;
you have practically, I suppose, all the municipalities,
with the exception of Calcutta, under your observa-
tion ?—Yes, and matters come up from the Calcutta
Municipality as well.
14857. Are the municipal budgets submitted to
you ?—The Calcutta Corporation budget is not sub-
mitted to Government.
14858. Are the budgets of the other municipalities
submitted to you?-—We review the accounts in the
annual reports ; they do not come up to Government
for sanction. They are dealt with by the Divisional
Commissioners.
14859. What is the composition of the Sanitary
Board in Bengal ?—It consists of the Second Member
of the Board of Revenue, the Secretary of the Public
Works Department, the Secretary of the Irrigation
Department, the Sanitary Commissioner, and the
Sanitary Engineer.
14860. Are its proceedings sent to you ?—Yes, if
necessary ; if the Board has to refer anything to
Government.
14861. Have they any power of decision?—Prac-
tically none.