DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0083
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
77
would not that tend to develop in practice very con-
siderable divergence in the administrative system as
between one district and another, and still more as
between one division and another ?—I hope it would.
16273. I see your point in the case of divisions, but
in regard to districts would it be equally useful ?—In
practice you would get a good deal of movement
between the different districts, but they are under the
supervision of a Commissioner who would ensure a
certain amount of uniformity.
16274. You have referred as an analogy to a native
regiment, but are you aware that a native regimept is
moved every three years, and that it is not supposed to
be good for the Officers and men to remain too long in
one place ?—Yes, but that is not quite the same thing ;
the officers are not moved from the regiment, but the
whole regiment is moved to a different part of the
country.
16275. What would the people in a district do if you
sent an officer to Darjeeling for three months every
year as you suggest ?—If you take some districts, the
District Officer would be just as available at Darjeeling
as if he remained in his own district, where he might
be 60 miles away from a line of rail.
16276. You have had experience of District Boards
and municipalities ?—I have had very little experience
of District Boards.
16277. A witness has said that the Dispensary
Committee was a committee consisting partly of
members of the District Board, and partly of outsiders
presided over by the Civil Surgeon, if not by the
District Board Chairman, and all that the District
Board had to do was to hand over their money to the
Dispensary Committee to spend ; is that so ?—That is
the system which is being gradually introduced.
16278. Previously, had the District Boards some-
thing to say with regard to the management of
dispensaries ?—Even where that system is in force, the
District Board passes the budget, and the expenditure
has to be made according to that budget. The object
is that people who subscribe to the institution should
know that their money is being spent properly instead
of being swallowed up in the general fund of the
District Board, as used to be the case.
16279. Then the Board passes a vote for Rs. 10,000,
say, for dispensaries have no further concern with it ?—
It gives a grant to each dispensary. It says you must
and “We will give you Rs 1,000 this year, and
sanction your spending Rs. 1,500, but you one : see if
you can raise the other Rs. 500 by subscription, or by
income from endowments.”
16280. Where does the committee come in?—They
supervise the work of the institution, and see that the
money is spent in accordance with the budget, and
that the doctor does his duty properly.
16281. I understand that there was one committee
for the whole district?—No, each dispensary has its
own committee.
16282. Does the District Board retain its full powers
of control ?—Yes. I think the District Board has
rather too much power, or had ; we want to decentralize
it, and let the people feel, if they can get subscriptions,
that the money will be spent on a particular dispensary.
16283. Can you do that and other things, by
increasing the powers of the Local Boards ?—As I
understand. Local Boards have very small powers
now ?—They have small funds.
16284. Would you give them a larger share of the
Red Cess or the district funds, however they are
derived, and give them powers with regard to local
education and roads, and so forth ?—They look after
the roads and that sort of thing now ; but the real
difficulty is where you have five or six Local Boards
and one District Board in a district. They are not
wealthy enough to pay for five experts, and if a Local
Board is to exercise large powers, it must have a
competent staff, such as an engineer and so on.
16285. In Madras the District Engineer serves the
District as a whole—both the District Board and the
talu’c Board—could that not be done here ?—If you
make the District Engineer, who is at headquarters
under the Chairman, the man to pass the estimates and
give out the contract and pass the works, it does not
seem to me to make much difference, if you merely
pass the money through the books, of the Local Board.
16286. The Local Board, at least, would be able to
allocate money to local works, and for roads in which
it was interested?—It does so now with regard to
roads of local interest as compared with roads of
district importance.
16287. Have Local Boards sufficient power or are
you prepared to give them more ?—I do not think
there is any need for any change in principle ; we
should all be glad to give more money to Local Boards
and get more work done.
16288. Assuming the system of class representation
which the Bengal Government have been advocating
comes into force in District Boards and municipalities,
would you be prepared to give them larger powers
than they have now with less control from outside ?—
I think there is not much control from outside.
16289. In regard to the undertaking of works
costing more than a certain sum, have they not to
refer to the Collector or some other officer?—Yes;
and I think that is probably necessary. An ordinary
small municipality has no competent engineering
adviser to advise it.
16290. With regard to the village system you have
spoken of, would you utilise it for educational and
sanitary purposes by making small grants of money to
the villages to spend at their own discretion, subject
to proper inspection ?—You could do that. I think it
would work.
16291. And would it be appreciated by the people?
—Yes. They often apply to have a school started in a
village.
16292. Supposing it was possible to say, “We give
you so much, build your school,” would they be able
to manage it?—That is what is done now. We give
the teacher a small grant, and he gets some small sums
from the parents of the pupils.
16293. Is that a satisfactory system?—-It is not
satisfactory, because we do not pay the teachers
enough, otherwise it would be.
16294. Do you do the same with regard to matters
of sanitation ; do you give them the money and say
“ Make your well or tank ” ?—No, they probably
could not be trusted to make a well. When I was in
Singhbhum, which was more primitive, I used to allow
them to make their tanks ; I used to give the village
headman Rs. 400 or Rs. 500, and tell him to make a
tank.
16295. I suppose that could not be applied fully to
Bengal proper by reason of the absence of village
communities. Could chaukidari panchayats be a
substitute ?—Chaukidari panchayats are things of
purely artificial creation of which I have not had much
experience, but at present I do not think there is much
use to be made of them in that way.
16296. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.') Supposing you
wanted to get rid of a man after after about 18 years’
service, how would you propose to do it ?—You can
dismiss a man now for cause shown, but it is very
difficult to do it in practice.
16297. Would you accept the difficulty of dismissing
a man with between 15 and 25 years’ service ?—Yes.
16298. Would you have no system of pension?—■
You suggest that up to 15 years he should serve
subject to bonus, and then he should be subject to
pension ?—Of course it is a great advantage to have
security of tenure, and I would like to retain as much
of that as possible.
16299. So that you would accept any inconvenience
caused by a person deteriorating from 15 to 25 years?
—Yes. I do not say that that is a cut-and-dried
scheme.
16300. With regard to your evidence as to smaller
provinces, supposing you had Commissioners under
the Local Government, would you give them as large
powers as possible in their areas ?—Yes.
16301. In that case would you want the Board of
Revenue ?—Yes, I think you want the Board of
Revenue and the Commissioners, but a great deal of
the work is now done twice over.
16302. If you enlarged the powers of Commissioners,
as far as practically possible, where would be the
necessity of the Board of Revenue ?—I would cut out
the Commissioner in a great many revenue matters.
Mr. C. H.
Bompai.
30 Dec., 1907.
77
would not that tend to develop in practice very con-
siderable divergence in the administrative system as
between one district and another, and still more as
between one division and another ?—I hope it would.
16273. I see your point in the case of divisions, but
in regard to districts would it be equally useful ?—In
practice you would get a good deal of movement
between the different districts, but they are under the
supervision of a Commissioner who would ensure a
certain amount of uniformity.
16274. You have referred as an analogy to a native
regiment, but are you aware that a native regimept is
moved every three years, and that it is not supposed to
be good for the Officers and men to remain too long in
one place ?—Yes, but that is not quite the same thing ;
the officers are not moved from the regiment, but the
whole regiment is moved to a different part of the
country.
16275. What would the people in a district do if you
sent an officer to Darjeeling for three months every
year as you suggest ?—If you take some districts, the
District Officer would be just as available at Darjeeling
as if he remained in his own district, where he might
be 60 miles away from a line of rail.
16276. You have had experience of District Boards
and municipalities ?—I have had very little experience
of District Boards.
16277. A witness has said that the Dispensary
Committee was a committee consisting partly of
members of the District Board, and partly of outsiders
presided over by the Civil Surgeon, if not by the
District Board Chairman, and all that the District
Board had to do was to hand over their money to the
Dispensary Committee to spend ; is that so ?—That is
the system which is being gradually introduced.
16278. Previously, had the District Boards some-
thing to say with regard to the management of
dispensaries ?—Even where that system is in force, the
District Board passes the budget, and the expenditure
has to be made according to that budget. The object
is that people who subscribe to the institution should
know that their money is being spent properly instead
of being swallowed up in the general fund of the
District Board, as used to be the case.
16279. Then the Board passes a vote for Rs. 10,000,
say, for dispensaries have no further concern with it ?—
It gives a grant to each dispensary. It says you must
and “We will give you Rs 1,000 this year, and
sanction your spending Rs. 1,500, but you one : see if
you can raise the other Rs. 500 by subscription, or by
income from endowments.”
16280. Where does the committee come in?—They
supervise the work of the institution, and see that the
money is spent in accordance with the budget, and
that the doctor does his duty properly.
16281. I understand that there was one committee
for the whole district?—No, each dispensary has its
own committee.
16282. Does the District Board retain its full powers
of control ?—Yes. I think the District Board has
rather too much power, or had ; we want to decentralize
it, and let the people feel, if they can get subscriptions,
that the money will be spent on a particular dispensary.
16283. Can you do that and other things, by
increasing the powers of the Local Boards ?—As I
understand. Local Boards have very small powers
now ?—They have small funds.
16284. Would you give them a larger share of the
Red Cess or the district funds, however they are
derived, and give them powers with regard to local
education and roads, and so forth ?—They look after
the roads and that sort of thing now ; but the real
difficulty is where you have five or six Local Boards
and one District Board in a district. They are not
wealthy enough to pay for five experts, and if a Local
Board is to exercise large powers, it must have a
competent staff, such as an engineer and so on.
16285. In Madras the District Engineer serves the
District as a whole—both the District Board and the
talu’c Board—could that not be done here ?—If you
make the District Engineer, who is at headquarters
under the Chairman, the man to pass the estimates and
give out the contract and pass the works, it does not
seem to me to make much difference, if you merely
pass the money through the books, of the Local Board.
16286. The Local Board, at least, would be able to
allocate money to local works, and for roads in which
it was interested?—It does so now with regard to
roads of local interest as compared with roads of
district importance.
16287. Have Local Boards sufficient power or are
you prepared to give them more ?—I do not think
there is any need for any change in principle ; we
should all be glad to give more money to Local Boards
and get more work done.
16288. Assuming the system of class representation
which the Bengal Government have been advocating
comes into force in District Boards and municipalities,
would you be prepared to give them larger powers
than they have now with less control from outside ?—
I think there is not much control from outside.
16289. In regard to the undertaking of works
costing more than a certain sum, have they not to
refer to the Collector or some other officer?—Yes;
and I think that is probably necessary. An ordinary
small municipality has no competent engineering
adviser to advise it.
16290. With regard to the village system you have
spoken of, would you utilise it for educational and
sanitary purposes by making small grants of money to
the villages to spend at their own discretion, subject
to proper inspection ?—You could do that. I think it
would work.
16291. And would it be appreciated by the people?
—Yes. They often apply to have a school started in a
village.
16292. Supposing it was possible to say, “We give
you so much, build your school,” would they be able
to manage it?—That is what is done now. We give
the teacher a small grant, and he gets some small sums
from the parents of the pupils.
16293. Is that a satisfactory system?—-It is not
satisfactory, because we do not pay the teachers
enough, otherwise it would be.
16294. Do you do the same with regard to matters
of sanitation ; do you give them the money and say
“ Make your well or tank ” ?—No, they probably
could not be trusted to make a well. When I was in
Singhbhum, which was more primitive, I used to allow
them to make their tanks ; I used to give the village
headman Rs. 400 or Rs. 500, and tell him to make a
tank.
16295. I suppose that could not be applied fully to
Bengal proper by reason of the absence of village
communities. Could chaukidari panchayats be a
substitute ?—Chaukidari panchayats are things of
purely artificial creation of which I have not had much
experience, but at present I do not think there is much
use to be made of them in that way.
16296. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.') Supposing you
wanted to get rid of a man after after about 18 years’
service, how would you propose to do it ?—You can
dismiss a man now for cause shown, but it is very
difficult to do it in practice.
16297. Would you accept the difficulty of dismissing
a man with between 15 and 25 years’ service ?—Yes.
16298. Would you have no system of pension?—■
You suggest that up to 15 years he should serve
subject to bonus, and then he should be subject to
pension ?—Of course it is a great advantage to have
security of tenure, and I would like to retain as much
of that as possible.
16299. So that you would accept any inconvenience
caused by a person deteriorating from 15 to 25 years?
—Yes. I do not say that that is a cut-and-dried
scheme.
16300. With regard to your evidence as to smaller
provinces, supposing you had Commissioners under
the Local Government, would you give them as large
powers as possible in their areas ?—Yes.
16301. In that case would you want the Board of
Revenue ?—Yes, I think you want the Board of
Revenue and the Commissioners, but a great deal of
the work is now done twice over.
16302. If you enlarged the powers of Commissioners,
as far as practically possible, where would be the
necessity of the Board of Revenue ?—I would cut out
the Commissioner in a great many revenue matters.
Mr. C. H.
Bompai.
30 Dec., 1907.