DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0084
78
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. C. II.
Bompas.
30 Dec., 1907.
Babu
Jogendra
Nath
Mukherjee.
31 Dec., 1907.
16303. You said that if you placed Sub-Divisional
Officers in territorial charge you would lose depart-
mental efficiency, but would you not get very much
better inspection ?—Yes, but I was thinking of a case
in the Santhal Parganas where we had six strong
Divisional Officers who knew the district thoroughly,
and who had the powers practically of District Officers,
but in a question like an excise settlement we found it
better not to let them make settlements ; the sub-
division was too small an area, so we centralized that.
16304. A witness stated that one great danger of
the departmental system in the Public Works Depart-
ment was that there was considerable corruption
amongst the subordinates, and that the control or
influence of a Collector would be of great value :
would you get that by giving territorial charge ?—I do
not think any system will have any effect on that
custom of the country.
16305. But perhaps it might be much more likely to
be found out ?—It is not a question of finding it out ;
we all know it. I do not know that it would have
any effect.
16306. Not more than if you had all your officers
grouped at headquarters?—I do not think so. You
see the officers are largely touring officers.
(The witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
TWENTY-THIRD DAY.
Calcutta, Tuesday, December 31st, 1907.
Present :
C. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
Sir Frederic Lely, K.C.I.E., C.S.I. W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S. W. L. Hichens, Esq.
R. C. Dutt, Esq.. C.I.E.
Babu Jogendra Nath Mukherjee was called and examined.
16307. (Chairman) What is your occupation ?—lam
a lawyer. My home is in Calcutta, but I practise in
the mufassal, and I am a vakil of the High Court. I
was a member of the Bengal Legislative Council, upon
which my term of service is just over. I have been a
member of the municipality of Purnea for about
18 years. I am now the Chairman, and I was Vice-
Chairman before for about nine years. The position
of Chairman is purely honorary.
The provincial Governments should be invested in
certain directions with larger financial powers, although
I would proceed cautiously in the matter. Generally
speaking, the provincial Governments might be re-
lieved of the necessity of going up for sanction to the
Government of India in matters of purely provincial
interest or of routine.
A more complete separation than at present exists
might be effected between the imperial and provincial
finances, and it could be done by letting the provincial
revenues alone as a matter of permanent rule, making
it possible for the financial relation between the Im-
perial and the provincial Governments to be readjusted
only in cases of extreme necessity. A fixed plan like
the above appears to be possible in view of the regular
annual surpluses in the revenue, and the practical fixity
of currency in point of exchange.
Provincial Governments might be given borrowing
powers up to a limit of, say, fifty lakhs, provided the
settlements with the Imperial Government in respect
of the divided heads of revenue were of a more per-
manent character than at present. The Local Govern-
ments might be invested with borrowing powers on
the same conditions as those which exist in respect of
municipalities, District Boards, and other local bodies
under the Local Authorities Loans Acts, the provin-
cial revenue being rendered liable to make good the
debt in case of the failure of the Local Government to
repay it. Such loans should be raised with the ap-
proval of the Imperial Government.
Delegation of further financial powers to provincial
Governments and to heads of Imperial Departments
does not appear to me to be desirable in respect of the
creation of new appointments, the enhancement of
salaries, etc.
Larger administrative powers should be given to
provincial Governments generally in the application to
local conditions of general lines of policy laid down by
the Government of India, and where there is no de-
clared policy I would leave the Local Governments
free to act
Restrictions as to details imposed upon Local
Governments in all matters of mere routine should be
done away with in all cases. For instance, I fail to
understand why it should be necessary for the Local
Government to go to the Imperial Government in
authorising local bodies to borrow money from out-
siders and not from Government. Such a course
would appear to be still more unnecessary in view of
a more permanently fixed financial settlement between
the two Governments. A general Act of delegation
in such matters, somewhat on the lines of Act V. of
1868, wherever possible, appears preferable. In other
cases specific amending legislation may be resorted to.
In view of a more complete separation of the pro-
vincial and imperial finances, it would be well if the
duties of Directors and Inspectors-General were con-
fined to the supervision of details only in respect of
departments primarily administered by Local Govern-
ments.
Provincial Governments should develop their ad-
ministration on their own lines, with discretion to
adopt or not, as they like, suggestions of reform
brought to their notice from other provinces. The
Government of India should, however, retain in their
hands the authority to interfere in extreme cases.
I would leave the right of appeal to the Government
of India as it is, and would not curtail the existing
rights of appeal by officers of the Government against
orders affecting them personally.
Under existing conditions it is neither possible, nor
desirable, to allow Commissioners and Collectors to
control to a greater extent than at present the expen-
diture in their divisions or districts. It is desirable to
invest them with larger powers of control if they were
advised in important executive matters by competent
Advisory or Administrative Councils.
'1 he influence of the provincial Governments is not
in the direction of excessive rigidity or uniformity.
There is, no doubt, some tendency in that direction,
but it is unavoidable and not excessive.
The tendency of the provincial Secretariats is to
regard matters too much from a purely departmental
standpoint. The provincial Governments do not
appear to be so impersonal as the Imperial Govern-
ment ; in many cases, however, they are too much
dominated by considerations of revenue.
Generally speaking, the European Executive Officers
do not have sufficient opportunities for personal con-
tact with the people at large. The existing obstacles in
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. C. II.
Bompas.
30 Dec., 1907.
Babu
Jogendra
Nath
Mukherjee.
31 Dec., 1907.
16303. You said that if you placed Sub-Divisional
Officers in territorial charge you would lose depart-
mental efficiency, but would you not get very much
better inspection ?—Yes, but I was thinking of a case
in the Santhal Parganas where we had six strong
Divisional Officers who knew the district thoroughly,
and who had the powers practically of District Officers,
but in a question like an excise settlement we found it
better not to let them make settlements ; the sub-
division was too small an area, so we centralized that.
16304. A witness stated that one great danger of
the departmental system in the Public Works Depart-
ment was that there was considerable corruption
amongst the subordinates, and that the control or
influence of a Collector would be of great value :
would you get that by giving territorial charge ?—I do
not think any system will have any effect on that
custom of the country.
16305. But perhaps it might be much more likely to
be found out ?—It is not a question of finding it out ;
we all know it. I do not know that it would have
any effect.
16306. Not more than if you had all your officers
grouped at headquarters?—I do not think so. You
see the officers are largely touring officers.
(The witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
TWENTY-THIRD DAY.
Calcutta, Tuesday, December 31st, 1907.
Present :
C. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
Sir Frederic Lely, K.C.I.E., C.S.I. W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S. W. L. Hichens, Esq.
R. C. Dutt, Esq.. C.I.E.
Babu Jogendra Nath Mukherjee was called and examined.
16307. (Chairman) What is your occupation ?—lam
a lawyer. My home is in Calcutta, but I practise in
the mufassal, and I am a vakil of the High Court. I
was a member of the Bengal Legislative Council, upon
which my term of service is just over. I have been a
member of the municipality of Purnea for about
18 years. I am now the Chairman, and I was Vice-
Chairman before for about nine years. The position
of Chairman is purely honorary.
The provincial Governments should be invested in
certain directions with larger financial powers, although
I would proceed cautiously in the matter. Generally
speaking, the provincial Governments might be re-
lieved of the necessity of going up for sanction to the
Government of India in matters of purely provincial
interest or of routine.
A more complete separation than at present exists
might be effected between the imperial and provincial
finances, and it could be done by letting the provincial
revenues alone as a matter of permanent rule, making
it possible for the financial relation between the Im-
perial and the provincial Governments to be readjusted
only in cases of extreme necessity. A fixed plan like
the above appears to be possible in view of the regular
annual surpluses in the revenue, and the practical fixity
of currency in point of exchange.
Provincial Governments might be given borrowing
powers up to a limit of, say, fifty lakhs, provided the
settlements with the Imperial Government in respect
of the divided heads of revenue were of a more per-
manent character than at present. The Local Govern-
ments might be invested with borrowing powers on
the same conditions as those which exist in respect of
municipalities, District Boards, and other local bodies
under the Local Authorities Loans Acts, the provin-
cial revenue being rendered liable to make good the
debt in case of the failure of the Local Government to
repay it. Such loans should be raised with the ap-
proval of the Imperial Government.
Delegation of further financial powers to provincial
Governments and to heads of Imperial Departments
does not appear to me to be desirable in respect of the
creation of new appointments, the enhancement of
salaries, etc.
Larger administrative powers should be given to
provincial Governments generally in the application to
local conditions of general lines of policy laid down by
the Government of India, and where there is no de-
clared policy I would leave the Local Governments
free to act
Restrictions as to details imposed upon Local
Governments in all matters of mere routine should be
done away with in all cases. For instance, I fail to
understand why it should be necessary for the Local
Government to go to the Imperial Government in
authorising local bodies to borrow money from out-
siders and not from Government. Such a course
would appear to be still more unnecessary in view of
a more permanently fixed financial settlement between
the two Governments. A general Act of delegation
in such matters, somewhat on the lines of Act V. of
1868, wherever possible, appears preferable. In other
cases specific amending legislation may be resorted to.
In view of a more complete separation of the pro-
vincial and imperial finances, it would be well if the
duties of Directors and Inspectors-General were con-
fined to the supervision of details only in respect of
departments primarily administered by Local Govern-
ments.
Provincial Governments should develop their ad-
ministration on their own lines, with discretion to
adopt or not, as they like, suggestions of reform
brought to their notice from other provinces. The
Government of India should, however, retain in their
hands the authority to interfere in extreme cases.
I would leave the right of appeal to the Government
of India as it is, and would not curtail the existing
rights of appeal by officers of the Government against
orders affecting them personally.
Under existing conditions it is neither possible, nor
desirable, to allow Commissioners and Collectors to
control to a greater extent than at present the expen-
diture in their divisions or districts. It is desirable to
invest them with larger powers of control if they were
advised in important executive matters by competent
Advisory or Administrative Councils.
'1 he influence of the provincial Governments is not
in the direction of excessive rigidity or uniformity.
There is, no doubt, some tendency in that direction,
but it is unavoidable and not excessive.
The tendency of the provincial Secretariats is to
regard matters too much from a purely departmental
standpoint. The provincial Governments do not
appear to be so impersonal as the Imperial Govern-
ment ; in many cases, however, they are too much
dominated by considerations of revenue.
Generally speaking, the European Executive Officers
do not have sufficient opportunities for personal con-
tact with the people at large. The existing obstacles in