DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0086
80
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Baku
Jogendra
Nath
Mukherjee.
31 Dee., 1907.
with regard to education ?—So far as the village
schools are concerned, I would try to institute a sense
of self-help in villages.
16328. Do you mean you would not give them
control over expenditure, but that you would allow
them to interest themselves in the management ?—In
Bengal, village communities are not worked on the
system which obtains elsewhere in India. But an
attempt might be made to organize them ; a village or
a cluster of villages might be formed into a unit. Of
course there is a system of village unions, but, as a
rule, they are very few, perhaps none at all in Bihar.
Outside village unions, there is no administrative pro-
vision under which village communities can be
approached, or under which local questions could be
dealt with by them.
16329. You would like to make some beginning, but
you would not give them any extensive power ?—Yes.
I would wait and see how they work with small
powers.
16339. Would you entrust them, to begin with, with
any powers to dispose of criminal or civil cases ?—
I would not. Of course I know that on the Bombay
side there are patels and so on, who exercise civil and
criminal functions to a limited extent. But there is
so much party feeling in almost every village in
Bengal that it would be better to wait and see how
they exercise any small powers entrusted to them,
before investing them with civil and criminal powers.
16331. Does that party feeling exhibit itself between
Muhammadans and Hindus ?—No. It is quite apart
from that. In a village, for instance, where a man had
many people in the shape of followers of his own, the
villagers would follow him and carry out his behests in
opposition to the desires of the rest of the people.
16332. Is the existence of men of that sort a source
of danger ?—Not always, because there are some good
points in it ; such a man becomes a sort of headman
and adjusts disputes, and in many ways represents the
villagers.
16333. (Sir Frederic Lely.) Have you taken an
interest in public life for many years ?—Yes, for 20 or
21 years.
16334. Are not most of the Deputy Magistrates in
these days English-speaking graduates ?—Yes.
16335. When you began life were they so well
educated ?—Yes ; almost as well as they are now.
Under the competitive system many young people
have been appointed Deputy Magistrates.
16336. Have you noticed any tendency amongst
highly educated Indians to adopt an exclusive attitude
towards the people ? Do you think that is a usual
result or accompaniment of high education ?—I cannot
say it is the result of high education. Neither do I
think it is an accompaniment of the education they
receive, but it is to some extent the result of the
exclusive character of the office they hold.
16337. As a matter of fact, is an Indian officer of
to-day more exclusive than he was 20 years ago ?—
I think within the last 20 years the difference is not
very noticeable. There may be a tendency that way,
both amongst Europeans and Indians.
16338. Do the people take a real interest in municipal
affairs ?—The general body of the public in backward
districts do not. As regards Purnea, they sometimes
take an interest in the proceedings, but not as a rule.
16339. Do they watch how their representatives
vote ?—No, I do not think they do.
16340. Are there any contested elections ?—Yes.
16341. Upon what points do contested elections turn
as a rule ; on the personality of the candidate ?—
I think so, and not upon any question as to what his
views are.
16342. Would his caste make a difference?—No;
they think what sort of man he is—is he likely to do
them any good ?
16343. Are the municipal proceedings conducted in
English ?—Yes.
16344. Are there many members who do not under-
stand English ?—Just a few ; but there is no one now
on the municipal Board which I represent who does
not know English.
16345. Does that not rather tend to give an undue
advantage to an English-speaking candidate?—Yes, to
some extent; but, to my mind, that does not make
any difference.
16346. Do you not think there would be a feeling
that there would not be much use in electing a
vernacular-speaking man ?—Yes ; there is some sort
of feeling that he would not be of much use on the
Board.
16347. You say your villages are torn by factions ;
if power were given to village panchayats or village
bodies in Bengal, would it not really mean that it
would be adding to the power of the zamindar ?—In
suburban areas, I do not think it would be so, but in
the interior I think it might give some importance to
the zamindars and to the money-lending classes
as well.
16348. {Mr. Dutt.) Are most Deputy Collectors
graduates of the Calcutta University?—Yes.
16349. Are they selected by competition?—They
used to be ; but that is abolished now. They are now
appointed by nomination from amongst certain classes.
16350. When was that change introduced ?—Five or
six years ago.
16351. Are the nominated Deputy Collectors more
accessible than the old class of Deputy Collectors who
entered by competition ?—No.
16352. Are they an improvement on the old system ?
—No.
16353. Are they worse than the old class who
entered by competition ?—I think that there are certain
tendencies in these people to stick more to the
Government. They are less accessible to the people.
16354. Would you like to revert to the old system of
competition ?—Yes ; of course, there are good points
and bad points on both sides, but, on the whole, I
should like to do so.
16355. You are in favour of a general Act of delega-
tion with regard to matters of mere routine. In those
matters would not a general Act of delegation empower
the Local Government to delegate any of its powers to
any of its subordinates?—Under Act V of 1828 it
would mean something like that ; but I have confined
my answer to acts of delegation in connection with
purely routine work.
16356. How would you define an Act of delegation
confined only to routine matters ?•—Of course there
would be some difficulty.
16357. Do you object to any material powers being
delegated by a general Act of delegation ?—Yes.
16358. In such cases would a specific amending Act
be better ?—Yes.
16359. Have not provincial Governments been in-
clined to introduce too many changes according to the
ideas of every new Lieutenant-Governor ?—Yes, I have
noticed that to be so.
16360. So that, if you allowed Local Governments a
free hand to proceed on their own lines, would that not
lead them to bring in more frequent changes which
might be undesirable ?—Looking at the question from
that point of view, certainly it would ; but my answer
was not confined to that class of questions, but to
questions which require steady application for years.
For instance, so far as Bengal is concerned, sanitation
is a very important question. If there was a fixed
policy pursued with reference to sanitation by the
Government of Bengal, it would require some time to
develop and execute, and therefore some real power
should be given to the provincial Government to
develop their ideas on the subject.
16361. In matters on which the policy has been laid
down, you think the Local Government should have a
free hand in following it out ?—That is my view.
16362. But you would not allow the provincial
Government to bring in changes of policy without the
control of the Imperial Government ?—Quite so.
16363. If Advisory Councils were formed, would
they bring the officials oftener into touch with the
local men?—Yes, I think so, provided they are not
place-hunters or seeking for the favour of the Col-
lector ; if they were truly representative men with
whom the Collector came into contact, I think the
result would be what I have indicated.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Baku
Jogendra
Nath
Mukherjee.
31 Dee., 1907.
with regard to education ?—So far as the village
schools are concerned, I would try to institute a sense
of self-help in villages.
16328. Do you mean you would not give them
control over expenditure, but that you would allow
them to interest themselves in the management ?—In
Bengal, village communities are not worked on the
system which obtains elsewhere in India. But an
attempt might be made to organize them ; a village or
a cluster of villages might be formed into a unit. Of
course there is a system of village unions, but, as a
rule, they are very few, perhaps none at all in Bihar.
Outside village unions, there is no administrative pro-
vision under which village communities can be
approached, or under which local questions could be
dealt with by them.
16329. You would like to make some beginning, but
you would not give them any extensive power ?—Yes.
I would wait and see how they work with small
powers.
16339. Would you entrust them, to begin with, with
any powers to dispose of criminal or civil cases ?—
I would not. Of course I know that on the Bombay
side there are patels and so on, who exercise civil and
criminal functions to a limited extent. But there is
so much party feeling in almost every village in
Bengal that it would be better to wait and see how
they exercise any small powers entrusted to them,
before investing them with civil and criminal powers.
16331. Does that party feeling exhibit itself between
Muhammadans and Hindus ?—No. It is quite apart
from that. In a village, for instance, where a man had
many people in the shape of followers of his own, the
villagers would follow him and carry out his behests in
opposition to the desires of the rest of the people.
16332. Is the existence of men of that sort a source
of danger ?—Not always, because there are some good
points in it ; such a man becomes a sort of headman
and adjusts disputes, and in many ways represents the
villagers.
16333. (Sir Frederic Lely.) Have you taken an
interest in public life for many years ?—Yes, for 20 or
21 years.
16334. Are not most of the Deputy Magistrates in
these days English-speaking graduates ?—Yes.
16335. When you began life were they so well
educated ?—Yes ; almost as well as they are now.
Under the competitive system many young people
have been appointed Deputy Magistrates.
16336. Have you noticed any tendency amongst
highly educated Indians to adopt an exclusive attitude
towards the people ? Do you think that is a usual
result or accompaniment of high education ?—I cannot
say it is the result of high education. Neither do I
think it is an accompaniment of the education they
receive, but it is to some extent the result of the
exclusive character of the office they hold.
16337. As a matter of fact, is an Indian officer of
to-day more exclusive than he was 20 years ago ?—
I think within the last 20 years the difference is not
very noticeable. There may be a tendency that way,
both amongst Europeans and Indians.
16338. Do the people take a real interest in municipal
affairs ?—The general body of the public in backward
districts do not. As regards Purnea, they sometimes
take an interest in the proceedings, but not as a rule.
16339. Do they watch how their representatives
vote ?—No, I do not think they do.
16340. Are there any contested elections ?—Yes.
16341. Upon what points do contested elections turn
as a rule ; on the personality of the candidate ?—
I think so, and not upon any question as to what his
views are.
16342. Would his caste make a difference?—No;
they think what sort of man he is—is he likely to do
them any good ?
16343. Are the municipal proceedings conducted in
English ?—Yes.
16344. Are there many members who do not under-
stand English ?—Just a few ; but there is no one now
on the municipal Board which I represent who does
not know English.
16345. Does that not rather tend to give an undue
advantage to an English-speaking candidate?—Yes, to
some extent; but, to my mind, that does not make
any difference.
16346. Do you not think there would be a feeling
that there would not be much use in electing a
vernacular-speaking man ?—Yes ; there is some sort
of feeling that he would not be of much use on the
Board.
16347. You say your villages are torn by factions ;
if power were given to village panchayats or village
bodies in Bengal, would it not really mean that it
would be adding to the power of the zamindar ?—In
suburban areas, I do not think it would be so, but in
the interior I think it might give some importance to
the zamindars and to the money-lending classes
as well.
16348. {Mr. Dutt.) Are most Deputy Collectors
graduates of the Calcutta University?—Yes.
16349. Are they selected by competition?—They
used to be ; but that is abolished now. They are now
appointed by nomination from amongst certain classes.
16350. When was that change introduced ?—Five or
six years ago.
16351. Are the nominated Deputy Collectors more
accessible than the old class of Deputy Collectors who
entered by competition ?—No.
16352. Are they an improvement on the old system ?
—No.
16353. Are they worse than the old class who
entered by competition ?—I think that there are certain
tendencies in these people to stick more to the
Government. They are less accessible to the people.
16354. Would you like to revert to the old system of
competition ?—Yes ; of course, there are good points
and bad points on both sides, but, on the whole, I
should like to do so.
16355. You are in favour of a general Act of delega-
tion with regard to matters of mere routine. In those
matters would not a general Act of delegation empower
the Local Government to delegate any of its powers to
any of its subordinates?—Under Act V of 1828 it
would mean something like that ; but I have confined
my answer to acts of delegation in connection with
purely routine work.
16356. How would you define an Act of delegation
confined only to routine matters ?•—Of course there
would be some difficulty.
16357. Do you object to any material powers being
delegated by a general Act of delegation ?—Yes.
16358. In such cases would a specific amending Act
be better ?—Yes.
16359. Have not provincial Governments been in-
clined to introduce too many changes according to the
ideas of every new Lieutenant-Governor ?—Yes, I have
noticed that to be so.
16360. So that, if you allowed Local Governments a
free hand to proceed on their own lines, would that not
lead them to bring in more frequent changes which
might be undesirable ?—Looking at the question from
that point of view, certainly it would ; but my answer
was not confined to that class of questions, but to
questions which require steady application for years.
For instance, so far as Bengal is concerned, sanitation
is a very important question. If there was a fixed
policy pursued with reference to sanitation by the
Government of Bengal, it would require some time to
develop and execute, and therefore some real power
should be given to the provincial Government to
develop their ideas on the subject.
16361. In matters on which the policy has been laid
down, you think the Local Government should have a
free hand in following it out ?—That is my view.
16362. But you would not allow the provincial
Government to bring in changes of policy without the
control of the Imperial Government ?—Quite so.
16363. If Advisory Councils were formed, would
they bring the officials oftener into touch with the
local men?—Yes, I think so, provided they are not
place-hunters or seeking for the favour of the Col-
lector ; if they were truly representative men with
whom the Collector came into contact, I think the
result would be what I have indicated.