DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0088
82
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Babu
Jogendra
Nath
Mukherjee.
31 Dec., 1907.
16397. But is it sufficiently pressed home that if
things go wrong in the town, and the people suffer
inconvenience, they are only to blame themselves for
not displaying public spirit ?—Or do they merely
think that they cannot get into very serious trouble,
because if anything happened the Government would
step in and put things right ?—I do not think they
have any opinions of any kind whatever : they are
simply indifferent, and amongst the money-making
classes, perhaps, they cannot afford the time.
16398. Has the municipality power to make the
majority of appointments in the Council ?—Yes,
subordinate appointments. The appointment of
Chairman has to be sanctioned by the Government.
We have no Secretary; the Vice-Chairman does the
work of Secretary. He is not a paid official. Under
him there are overseers and an accountant head clerk
with office staff, and an outdoor establishment which
carries on the outdoor work. We appoint these our-
selves without the confirmation of Government. The
Board can also dismiss them.
16399. Without an appeal to Government ?—I am
not sure about the appeal.
16400. Do you think there should be an appeal or
not ?—I would not restrict the right of appeal,
because if the municipality went wrong, it should be
set right.
16401. Is your principal source of income from an
assessment rate ?—Yes, the principal source of revenue
is that derived from the assessment of landed
property, carriage licences, and things like that.
16402. Do you impose the maximum rate imposable
under the law ?—Yes.
16403. Therefore you cannot, practically speaking,
increase your expenditure, unless the town increases
in size and your revenue rises automatically ?—That
is so.
16404. Does the Government make you any contri-
bution?—Sometimes. Now - a - days, owing to the
surpluses, Commissioners are given certain amounts to
be distributed amongst District Boards and munici-
palities at the end of the year. But that is not very
satisfactory, because there is some difficulty with
regard to the application of the money. 11 comes in
generally at the fag end of the year and without any
forethought the money is distributed ; it has to be
spent, and is spent, without much discrimination.
16405. If you have anything at all, do you feel you
would like to count upon it when making up your
budget ?—Yes.
16406. Is your budget submitted to Government?
■—It is, nearly two months before the financial yeai’ to
which it applies.
16407. (Mr. Meyer.) Were you in the Legislative
Council when the last provincial settlement was made
in 1904?—No ; I have read the debates on the budget
of the Indian Government of that time.
16408. There was a new settlement in 1906 ; were
you there then ?—Yes.
16409. Was that settlement explained by the
Financial Secretary in putting the Bengal budget
before the Legislative Council ?—It was to some extent,
and we had some intelligent grasp of the thing. I
could follow the general principles of it.
16410. You say that there should be a more complete
separation between imperial and provincial finance in
particular matters, the financial relations between the
Imperial and provincial Governments being adjusted
only in cases of extreme necessity. Is that not what
has been done ?—Yes, there is a fixed proportion under
the divided heads, but there is no assurance ; the
Government can step in at any moment, and unless
there is any certainty, the Local Governments cannot
have distinct funds of their own for the purposes of
work extending over a series of years.
16411. Are you aware that the Government of India
have stated that they will not alter the provincial
settlement, except in cases of grave imperial emergency ?
—Yes. I refer to the speech of Sir Edward Law in
introducing the budget of 1904-5.
16412. Assuming that there has been such an
assurance, does that not meet your view ?—It does.
But, to my mind, the assurance given is not sufficient
for the credit of a f/uasi-independent provincial fund
to the extent of enabling it to borrow. I think the
Government of India should specify the emergencies
which would be held to justify them in disturbing the
existing settlements.
16413. When speaking of investing the provincial
Governments with borrowing powers up to a limit of
50 lakhs, do you mean 50 lakhs in one year?—No,
altogether.
16414. Would that not interfere with the borrowing
powers of the Government of India as regards rupee
loans ?—That is a difficult question to answer ; but I
think not, because the borrowing powers of the
Government of India are practically unlimited.
16415. Is not the amount that is tendered for loan
in this country relatively small ?—It is.
16416. And if the provincial Governments absorb
some of it, will there not be less left for the Imperial
Government ?—But my idea is that money can be
raised in England on much more favourable terms by
the Government of India. I would negotiate the
market, as I found it.
16417. Anyhow you would admit that the needs of
the Imperial Government must come first ?—Certainly.
16418. You say that you do not want to delegate
further financial powers to Heads of provincial Govern-
ments with reference to the creation of new appoint-
ments, and so forth ; but at the same time you want
to give provincial Governments a freer hand in matters
of detail. Is that quite consistent ?—I refer to the
actual acts of administration. I do not include new
appointments. I think that every such case should go
to the Government of India.
16419. You think the influence of the Departments
of the Government of India is in the direction of
excessive rigidity or uniformity — have you any
experience of your own upon that point?—1 am not
prepared to cite instances, but with regard to land
revenue adequate consideration is not given to the
circumstances of a particular district or province.
16420. Do you mean with regard to such a matter as
the assessment of land revenue ?—Yes.
16421. But is that not a matter for local officials ?—■
But there are certain fixed rules.
16422. Might the Public Works Department be more
under the influence of the Commissioners ?—Yes, I
think in the Public Works Department there should be
less rigidity, and I have come across instances of great
dilatoriness and expense incurred in having to get
certain things from England from the Stores Depart-
ment of the Secretary of State.
16423. Would you be in favour of giving a
Commissioner the power of financial sanction with
regard to a number of Public Works projects which
are now sent to the Local Government—in fact, giving
him a little budget ?—I think that would be better
than the present practice.
16424. How would you have the Administrative
Councils elected ?—I am not prepared to go into
details, but 1 have indicated the principle. I think
municipalities and District and Local Boards might be
asked to return members, and some other electorates
might be improvised to return members ; and there
might be a certain element of nominated members.
16425. Supposing the Collector does not agree with
the Administrative Council on any matter, what
would happen?—He would be bound to refer the
matter to higher authorities.
16426. Would you propose to allow members of
Administrative Councils to dispose of minor matters on
their own authority?—I would not risk an opinion
without knowing the members of the Council.
16427. At any rate would you have such a system
introduced by way of experiment in two or three
divisions or districts ?—Yes.
16428. In general district administration is there a
tendency to concentrate a good many Deputy Collectors
and officers at headquarters ?—Yes.
16429. Would it be better to divide a district more
into territorial sub-divisions, and to give each man a
territorial charge, both criminal and revenue ?—I
would keep the magisterial powers separate.
16430. Would you have more Magistrates scattered
about the districts, so that the people could come more
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Babu
Jogendra
Nath
Mukherjee.
31 Dec., 1907.
16397. But is it sufficiently pressed home that if
things go wrong in the town, and the people suffer
inconvenience, they are only to blame themselves for
not displaying public spirit ?—Or do they merely
think that they cannot get into very serious trouble,
because if anything happened the Government would
step in and put things right ?—I do not think they
have any opinions of any kind whatever : they are
simply indifferent, and amongst the money-making
classes, perhaps, they cannot afford the time.
16398. Has the municipality power to make the
majority of appointments in the Council ?—Yes,
subordinate appointments. The appointment of
Chairman has to be sanctioned by the Government.
We have no Secretary; the Vice-Chairman does the
work of Secretary. He is not a paid official. Under
him there are overseers and an accountant head clerk
with office staff, and an outdoor establishment which
carries on the outdoor work. We appoint these our-
selves without the confirmation of Government. The
Board can also dismiss them.
16399. Without an appeal to Government ?—I am
not sure about the appeal.
16400. Do you think there should be an appeal or
not ?—I would not restrict the right of appeal,
because if the municipality went wrong, it should be
set right.
16401. Is your principal source of income from an
assessment rate ?—Yes, the principal source of revenue
is that derived from the assessment of landed
property, carriage licences, and things like that.
16402. Do you impose the maximum rate imposable
under the law ?—Yes.
16403. Therefore you cannot, practically speaking,
increase your expenditure, unless the town increases
in size and your revenue rises automatically ?—That
is so.
16404. Does the Government make you any contri-
bution?—Sometimes. Now - a - days, owing to the
surpluses, Commissioners are given certain amounts to
be distributed amongst District Boards and munici-
palities at the end of the year. But that is not very
satisfactory, because there is some difficulty with
regard to the application of the money. 11 comes in
generally at the fag end of the year and without any
forethought the money is distributed ; it has to be
spent, and is spent, without much discrimination.
16405. If you have anything at all, do you feel you
would like to count upon it when making up your
budget ?—Yes.
16406. Is your budget submitted to Government?
■—It is, nearly two months before the financial yeai’ to
which it applies.
16407. (Mr. Meyer.) Were you in the Legislative
Council when the last provincial settlement was made
in 1904?—No ; I have read the debates on the budget
of the Indian Government of that time.
16408. There was a new settlement in 1906 ; were
you there then ?—Yes.
16409. Was that settlement explained by the
Financial Secretary in putting the Bengal budget
before the Legislative Council ?—It was to some extent,
and we had some intelligent grasp of the thing. I
could follow the general principles of it.
16410. You say that there should be a more complete
separation between imperial and provincial finance in
particular matters, the financial relations between the
Imperial and provincial Governments being adjusted
only in cases of extreme necessity. Is that not what
has been done ?—Yes, there is a fixed proportion under
the divided heads, but there is no assurance ; the
Government can step in at any moment, and unless
there is any certainty, the Local Governments cannot
have distinct funds of their own for the purposes of
work extending over a series of years.
16411. Are you aware that the Government of India
have stated that they will not alter the provincial
settlement, except in cases of grave imperial emergency ?
—Yes. I refer to the speech of Sir Edward Law in
introducing the budget of 1904-5.
16412. Assuming that there has been such an
assurance, does that not meet your view ?—It does.
But, to my mind, the assurance given is not sufficient
for the credit of a f/uasi-independent provincial fund
to the extent of enabling it to borrow. I think the
Government of India should specify the emergencies
which would be held to justify them in disturbing the
existing settlements.
16413. When speaking of investing the provincial
Governments with borrowing powers up to a limit of
50 lakhs, do you mean 50 lakhs in one year?—No,
altogether.
16414. Would that not interfere with the borrowing
powers of the Government of India as regards rupee
loans ?—That is a difficult question to answer ; but I
think not, because the borrowing powers of the
Government of India are practically unlimited.
16415. Is not the amount that is tendered for loan
in this country relatively small ?—It is.
16416. And if the provincial Governments absorb
some of it, will there not be less left for the Imperial
Government ?—But my idea is that money can be
raised in England on much more favourable terms by
the Government of India. I would negotiate the
market, as I found it.
16417. Anyhow you would admit that the needs of
the Imperial Government must come first ?—Certainly.
16418. You say that you do not want to delegate
further financial powers to Heads of provincial Govern-
ments with reference to the creation of new appoint-
ments, and so forth ; but at the same time you want
to give provincial Governments a freer hand in matters
of detail. Is that quite consistent ?—I refer to the
actual acts of administration. I do not include new
appointments. I think that every such case should go
to the Government of India.
16419. You think the influence of the Departments
of the Government of India is in the direction of
excessive rigidity or uniformity — have you any
experience of your own upon that point?—1 am not
prepared to cite instances, but with regard to land
revenue adequate consideration is not given to the
circumstances of a particular district or province.
16420. Do you mean with regard to such a matter as
the assessment of land revenue ?—Yes.
16421. But is that not a matter for local officials ?—■
But there are certain fixed rules.
16422. Might the Public Works Department be more
under the influence of the Commissioners ?—Yes, I
think in the Public Works Department there should be
less rigidity, and I have come across instances of great
dilatoriness and expense incurred in having to get
certain things from England from the Stores Depart-
ment of the Secretary of State.
16423. Would you be in favour of giving a
Commissioner the power of financial sanction with
regard to a number of Public Works projects which
are now sent to the Local Government—in fact, giving
him a little budget ?—I think that would be better
than the present practice.
16424. How would you have the Administrative
Councils elected ?—I am not prepared to go into
details, but 1 have indicated the principle. I think
municipalities and District and Local Boards might be
asked to return members, and some other electorates
might be improvised to return members ; and there
might be a certain element of nominated members.
16425. Supposing the Collector does not agree with
the Administrative Council on any matter, what
would happen?—He would be bound to refer the
matter to higher authorities.
16426. Would you propose to allow members of
Administrative Councils to dispose of minor matters on
their own authority?—I would not risk an opinion
without knowing the members of the Council.
16427. At any rate would you have such a system
introduced by way of experiment in two or three
divisions or districts ?—Yes.
16428. In general district administration is there a
tendency to concentrate a good many Deputy Collectors
and officers at headquarters ?—Yes.
16429. Would it be better to divide a district more
into territorial sub-divisions, and to give each man a
territorial charge, both criminal and revenue ?—I
would keep the magisterial powers separate.
16430. Would you have more Magistrates scattered
about the districts, so that the people could come more