DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0093
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
87
16500. (Mr. Hichens.) How are the members of the
Port Trust appointed ?—Six of them are elected by
the Chamber of Commerce, one by the Trades Associa-
tion, which is also commercial, one by the Bengal
Association—an Indian Association—which is also
commercial, one by the Corporation of Calcutta, and
there are three large lines of railway running into
Calcutta, two of which are usually represented on the
Trust, their representatives being nominated by the
Local Government. Then there are the Collector of
Customs, and the Deputy Director of Royal Indian
Mails. Our Chairman who is one of the Commissioners
and presides at our meetings, is generally the senior
member of the Board of Revenue, and the Collector of
Howrah is a member, because Howrah has an interest
in our operations. Finally there is the Vice-Chairman.
16501. Under whom is the administration of the
Pilot Service now ?—It is under a Government officer
called the Port Officer of Calcutta. He is subordinate
to the Marine Department of the Local Government.
16502. Have you any reason to suppose that the
Local Government would be unwilling to give up that
branch of the work ?—I do not think the Government
would be unwilling : the pilots might object to be
transferred from what might be termed a Government
Service to the Service of a Port Trust.
18503. Can you issue a loan without the sanction of
the Government of India ? —No.
16504. Do you see any objection to that restriction?
—No, no objection whatever ; in fact, we quite agree
that the Government of India must have control in
that matter, because the interests of the tax-payer
must be superior to the interests of the local rate-payer,
and we can only float our loans after consideration of
what the operations of the Government of India
may be.
16505. Do you mean that your loans might spoil the
market for the Government of India ?—That is one
reason ; a second is that we have the advantage of the
financial advice of the Government of India, and freely
avail ourselves of it.
16506. Do you ever raise your loans in England or
Europe ?—This year we obtained for the first time,
on the recommendation of the Government of India,
the sanction of the Secretary of State to raise a million
of money in London, and as it happened that I was on
leave at the time, I interested myself in London in
seeing what could be done in the way of raising money
on more profitable terms than in Calcutta. It may
have been that at the time the London market was
unfavourable, but at any rate I found that I could
probably raise a loan at 96, out of which I would have
to pay underwriting charges and brokerage^ while we
were able at that time to place the same loan in
Calcutta at about 96| nett.
16507. Are all large works put up to public tender ?
—No ; in Calcutta we usually do most of our work
departmentally, and our objection to going up for the
sanction of the Government to contracts is that whereas
the Government, or the Government of India, agree to
the amount of the work, and may sanction a work up
to two or three lakhs of rupees, we then have to go up to
Government for sanction to a contract for bricks or a
contract for sand, which we think is unnecessary.
16508. You mean that, first of all, you get the
various administrative sanctions that are necessary,
and, having got those, you have to get sanction for the
individual contracts ?—Yes, that is what we object to.
16509. Is it not desirable that there should be a rule
to the effect that the purchase of any article over a
certain sum in value should be put up to public tender ?
■—No, on the contrary I think that would be objection-
able ; you might very frequently have to meet a ring
of speculators who had worked the market against you,
and it would be very difficult to break through it.
For instance, we may buy land to make our own bricks,
or we may buy a quarry to get our own stone, and I
think we ought to be absolutely free in all matters of
that kind.
16510. (Mr Dutt.) Does your total loan amount to
a large sum ?—It is about 8 crores in all to the public,
and to the Government
16511. Is the money borrowed on the security of
the property vested in the Commissioners ?—Yes, none
of it is guaranteed.
16512. (Sir Frederic Lely.) What are the functions Mr. F. G.
of the Port Officer ?—He has control of the Pilot Dumayne.
Service, and he is also the Shipping Master, that is to ~~
say, he deals with the engaging and discharging of 1 Dee->
crews, and he also administers several of the Acts with
regard to the registration of vessels, &c.
16513. You propose to take away from him the
controFof the pilotage, is that all ?—The Commissioners
are largely representative of the commerce and shipping
of the port—they represent the shipping as well as
trade, and it is the Commissioners’ ships that are being
navigated, so to speak; therefore it is the Com-
missioners who are most interested in the Pilot Service,
and they think that they should have the right of
control over it.
16514. Do you come into collision with the Port
Officer at all ?—No, except in the matter of pilotage,
and even then I could not say we come into collision ;
but we think it is not a right distribution of work.
16515. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) Is it satisfactory
that your Chairman should Ire only a part time officer ?
—The question has only been informally discussed.
In the Bombay Port Trust the Chairman is a man who
devotes his whole time to the work, but here it is the
Vice-Chairman who is the Executive Officer, and I
rather regard it as advantageous to this Trust that we
have the senior member of the Board of Revenue as
our Chairman, because it helps us in conducting our
business with the Government. I think that it is a
good arrangement, and there has been no difficulty in
regard to it.
16516. Is not the Chairman a fairly busy man
independently of the Port Trust business ?—Certainly.
16517. And unless there happened to be a very
carefully selected Vice-Chairman, there might be some
difficulty in carrying the work on ?—There might be
the same difficulty if you had a carefully selected
Chairman.
16518. In proposing that you should take over the
Pilot Service, do you suggest that it is not efficiently
managed at present ?—No ; we only suggest a change.
16519. (Mr. Meyer.) Is the senior member of the
Board of Revenue always Chairman of the Port Trust ?
•—Not always; occasionally the junior member is
Chairman.
16520. Suppose the senior member takes leave and
the second member becomes acting senior member,
would he act as Chairman of the Port Trust?—No,
not ex-officio — Government would have to appoint
him.
16521. Would it not be better if one member
of the Board of Revenue were to be appointed
Chairman of the Port Trust during his term of office
without reference to the fact that he was first member
or second member ?—No, I think that Government
should have the selection. They may appoint any
official they please, and it happens that they have
always appointed a member of the Board of Revenue.
16522. Does that lead to a good many changes in the
Chairmanship ?—Yes.
16523. Is that prejudicial to the working of the
Trust?—No, the Chairman presides at our meetings.
16524. It necessarily, however, makes the Vice-
Chairman the real Executive, does it not?—Yes, and
it is so intended by the Act that he should be ; but, on
the other hand, while it makes him the real Executive,
he is not the Chairman, and he has not the full control,
perhaps, that he might otherwise have.
16525. Speaking generally, do you find that the
Chairman takes full interest in the administration ?
—Yes.
16526. With regard to the present restriction in the
matter of works, do you find that that leads to useful
engineering advice being given you by the high Public
Works officials of the Local Government and the
Government of India?—No, they have left us very
much to ourselves ; they consider that we know what
suits us best, and they leave us to carry out the works
we suggest. I presume they always approve of them,
because we have never had any point raised.
16527. You say that you desire to be allowed to
invest your sinking fund in any public securities, and
87
16500. (Mr. Hichens.) How are the members of the
Port Trust appointed ?—Six of them are elected by
the Chamber of Commerce, one by the Trades Associa-
tion, which is also commercial, one by the Bengal
Association—an Indian Association—which is also
commercial, one by the Corporation of Calcutta, and
there are three large lines of railway running into
Calcutta, two of which are usually represented on the
Trust, their representatives being nominated by the
Local Government. Then there are the Collector of
Customs, and the Deputy Director of Royal Indian
Mails. Our Chairman who is one of the Commissioners
and presides at our meetings, is generally the senior
member of the Board of Revenue, and the Collector of
Howrah is a member, because Howrah has an interest
in our operations. Finally there is the Vice-Chairman.
16501. Under whom is the administration of the
Pilot Service now ?—It is under a Government officer
called the Port Officer of Calcutta. He is subordinate
to the Marine Department of the Local Government.
16502. Have you any reason to suppose that the
Local Government would be unwilling to give up that
branch of the work ?—I do not think the Government
would be unwilling : the pilots might object to be
transferred from what might be termed a Government
Service to the Service of a Port Trust.
18503. Can you issue a loan without the sanction of
the Government of India ? —No.
16504. Do you see any objection to that restriction?
—No, no objection whatever ; in fact, we quite agree
that the Government of India must have control in
that matter, because the interests of the tax-payer
must be superior to the interests of the local rate-payer,
and we can only float our loans after consideration of
what the operations of the Government of India
may be.
16505. Do you mean that your loans might spoil the
market for the Government of India ?—That is one
reason ; a second is that we have the advantage of the
financial advice of the Government of India, and freely
avail ourselves of it.
16506. Do you ever raise your loans in England or
Europe ?—This year we obtained for the first time,
on the recommendation of the Government of India,
the sanction of the Secretary of State to raise a million
of money in London, and as it happened that I was on
leave at the time, I interested myself in London in
seeing what could be done in the way of raising money
on more profitable terms than in Calcutta. It may
have been that at the time the London market was
unfavourable, but at any rate I found that I could
probably raise a loan at 96, out of which I would have
to pay underwriting charges and brokerage^ while we
were able at that time to place the same loan in
Calcutta at about 96| nett.
16507. Are all large works put up to public tender ?
—No ; in Calcutta we usually do most of our work
departmentally, and our objection to going up for the
sanction of the Government to contracts is that whereas
the Government, or the Government of India, agree to
the amount of the work, and may sanction a work up
to two or three lakhs of rupees, we then have to go up to
Government for sanction to a contract for bricks or a
contract for sand, which we think is unnecessary.
16508. You mean that, first of all, you get the
various administrative sanctions that are necessary,
and, having got those, you have to get sanction for the
individual contracts ?—Yes, that is what we object to.
16509. Is it not desirable that there should be a rule
to the effect that the purchase of any article over a
certain sum in value should be put up to public tender ?
■—No, on the contrary I think that would be objection-
able ; you might very frequently have to meet a ring
of speculators who had worked the market against you,
and it would be very difficult to break through it.
For instance, we may buy land to make our own bricks,
or we may buy a quarry to get our own stone, and I
think we ought to be absolutely free in all matters of
that kind.
16510. (Mr Dutt.) Does your total loan amount to
a large sum ?—It is about 8 crores in all to the public,
and to the Government
16511. Is the money borrowed on the security of
the property vested in the Commissioners ?—Yes, none
of it is guaranteed.
16512. (Sir Frederic Lely.) What are the functions Mr. F. G.
of the Port Officer ?—He has control of the Pilot Dumayne.
Service, and he is also the Shipping Master, that is to ~~
say, he deals with the engaging and discharging of 1 Dee->
crews, and he also administers several of the Acts with
regard to the registration of vessels, &c.
16513. You propose to take away from him the
controFof the pilotage, is that all ?—The Commissioners
are largely representative of the commerce and shipping
of the port—they represent the shipping as well as
trade, and it is the Commissioners’ ships that are being
navigated, so to speak; therefore it is the Com-
missioners who are most interested in the Pilot Service,
and they think that they should have the right of
control over it.
16514. Do you come into collision with the Port
Officer at all ?—No, except in the matter of pilotage,
and even then I could not say we come into collision ;
but we think it is not a right distribution of work.
16515. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) Is it satisfactory
that your Chairman should Ire only a part time officer ?
—The question has only been informally discussed.
In the Bombay Port Trust the Chairman is a man who
devotes his whole time to the work, but here it is the
Vice-Chairman who is the Executive Officer, and I
rather regard it as advantageous to this Trust that we
have the senior member of the Board of Revenue as
our Chairman, because it helps us in conducting our
business with the Government. I think that it is a
good arrangement, and there has been no difficulty in
regard to it.
16516. Is not the Chairman a fairly busy man
independently of the Port Trust business ?—Certainly.
16517. And unless there happened to be a very
carefully selected Vice-Chairman, there might be some
difficulty in carrying the work on ?—There might be
the same difficulty if you had a carefully selected
Chairman.
16518. In proposing that you should take over the
Pilot Service, do you suggest that it is not efficiently
managed at present ?—No ; we only suggest a change.
16519. (Mr. Meyer.) Is the senior member of the
Board of Revenue always Chairman of the Port Trust ?
•—Not always; occasionally the junior member is
Chairman.
16520. Suppose the senior member takes leave and
the second member becomes acting senior member,
would he act as Chairman of the Port Trust?—No,
not ex-officio — Government would have to appoint
him.
16521. Would it not be better if one member
of the Board of Revenue were to be appointed
Chairman of the Port Trust during his term of office
without reference to the fact that he was first member
or second member ?—No, I think that Government
should have the selection. They may appoint any
official they please, and it happens that they have
always appointed a member of the Board of Revenue.
16522. Does that lead to a good many changes in the
Chairmanship ?—Yes.
16523. Is that prejudicial to the working of the
Trust?—No, the Chairman presides at our meetings.
16524. It necessarily, however, makes the Vice-
Chairman the real Executive, does it not?—Yes, and
it is so intended by the Act that he should be ; but, on
the other hand, while it makes him the real Executive,
he is not the Chairman, and he has not the full control,
perhaps, that he might otherwise have.
16525. Speaking generally, do you find that the
Chairman takes full interest in the administration ?
—Yes.
16526. With regard to the present restriction in the
matter of works, do you find that that leads to useful
engineering advice being given you by the high Public
Works officials of the Local Government and the
Government of India?—No, they have left us very
much to ourselves ; they consider that we know what
suits us best, and they leave us to carry out the works
we suggest. I presume they always approve of them,
because we have never had any point raised.
16527. You say that you desire to be allowed to
invest your sinking fund in any public securities, and