DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0102
Mr. G. W.
Kiichler.
31 Dec., 1907.
96
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
paid by the department. The District Boards have
still practical control over the sub-inspectors, and even
to a larger extent than before.
16754. In what way?—With regard to the power of
transfer. In other respects they are servants of the
department.
16755. Do they look after the primary schools under
the District Boards ?—They are almost entirely con-
cerned with primary schools.
16756. Is it satisfactory that the work of the
District Boards should be done by men who are servants
of another department ?—In theory, of course, it is
unsatisfactory, but in practice it has worked pretty
well, and there has been practically no harm done.
16757. Have the District Boards the same interest
as they had before in founding new schools, and in
getting the villagers to find houses for schools, and
getting contributions from villagers, now that they
have to work through servants who are not their
servants ?—The sub-inspector understands his position ;
he is really under the Chairman of the District Board
and has to listen to his orders. I admit it is a peculiar
system.
16758. On the whole, would it be abetter arrangement
to re-transfer these officers to the District Boards, and
let the sub-inspectors work under the District Boards
as their servants?—Yes; in some ways it would, so
long as their prospects would not be interfered with.
One of the most important reasons for transferring
them to the Education Department was that they had
very poor prospects under the District Boards.
16759. Suppose increments were allowed them by
the District Boards, and they subscribed to a provident
fund, would there be any great reason for complaint ?
■—I do not think there would be any reason for com-
plaint so long as the District Boards did their duty ;
it all turns upon that. The inspectors will look after
the sub-inspecto:s ; I doubt if we can guarantee that
the District Boards will look as well after them.
16760. Would the District Boards take a little more
interest if they had to work through their own servants
in their own way ?—I can only judge from what has
happened before, when the sub-inspectors were the
servants of the District Boards, and then I cannot say
that any more interest was shown. Of course the
whole thing is largely due to the fact that, through
lack of funds, the District Boards have not been able
to do much.
16761. In other respects, with regard to fixing the
hours of attendance, the number of holidays in the
year, etc., do you not think a large amount of discretion
can be given to the District Boards, who are more in
touch with the villagers than the officers of the Educa-
tion Department ?—Yes, if they really had the primary
schools to look after.
16762. Has a District Board now the power of laying
down a rule that schools during, say, two months in
the year, should be held in the mornings, without
reference to your department ?—They would have to
refer to our department, but we would not interfere in
a matter of that kind.
16763. With regard to these matters would you have
any objection to making the rules elastic so as to give
more discretion?—No ; it is really a question of the
District Boards acting up to their duties.
16764. Does your department inspect all the colleges ?
—No, only the aided colleges and Government schools ;
the private colleges have not hitherto been inspected ;
but they are now inspected by the University under
the new Regulations.
16765. What sort of supervision by the Education
Department do you propose over private colleges ?—
We propose to encourage the system of grants-in-aid,
which will make them amenable to departmental
inspection.
16766. Would you try to encourage the establish-
ment of private colleges ?—Yes, but I think they must
be liberally aided by Government, because education
cannot be conducted as a commercial undertaking.
16767. But there may be colleges which are not
commercial undertakings ?—There may be, but not
many of them have appeared so far.
16768. {Mr. Hichens.) You expressed a view that
the Government of India should concern itself with
principles and that the details should be left to the
Local Government ; do you say that the way to tackle
the problem as to the division of authority between the
two is to decide first of all what the details are ?—I
should be quite content if a general ruling were laid
down that the Government of India should not inter-
fere in matters of detail, except in so far as they might
give advice. I do not think one could really say what
is a matter of detail and what is a matter of principle :
it would be very difficult to differentiate. You must
leave it to the commonsense of the parties concerned.
16769. If you want to avoid perpetual discussion as
to what is a detail and what is a principle, must you
no'i try and lay down some principle ?—Yes, you would
have to do that.
16770. Is not the way to deal with the problem to
lay down certain principles and to say that the inter-
pretation of those principles should rest with the Local
Government ?—If that could be done, I should welcome
it.
16771. Is it possible to lay down educational prin-
ciples of universal application, and to say that the
carrying out of those principles should rest with the
Local Government ?—It would be, to a certain extent ;
but there would always be cases in which it would be
difficult to say whether or not they came under the
general principle.
16772. Can you give me any examples of general
principles?—With regard to University education,
general principles would regulate the admission to
Universities, and would, for instance, decide the age at
which the students entered the Universities.
16773. You think that is a matter which ought to
be uniform throughout India?—Even with regard
to that, I would say that the matter of age might
perhaps be left within certain limits ; the Government
of India ought to lay down a minimum age for admis-
sion to Universities.
16774. Is it not more difficult to deal with the matter
of education as a general principle than it is to deal
with anything else ?—Yes, that is so ; I find it
exceedingly difficult to lay down a general principle
with regard to education.
16775. So that it is extremely difficult to lay down
or decree in any way the functions of the Government
of India in all respects ?—It is very difficult.
16776. Have you ever considered whether it would
be possible to pass a general Act in which the principles
in regard to education should be defined ?—I think
that would be extremely difficult; I should simply
prefer it to be laid down as a general ruling.
16777. What happens to-day is that each Local
Government frames its own regulations, which are
submitted to the Government of India for sanction ?—■
Yes, but from time to time the Government of India
itself publicly issues general resolutions on the question
of its educational policy.
16778. Is the purport of those resolutions embodied
in your Regulations ?—Yes, we have always to abide
those general Regulations, but the Government of
India go far beyond that when they come to criticise
projects which come from the Local Government.
16779 If you want to get a clearly defined line,
ought you not to depart from the principle of each
Government submitting its own defined Regulations
to the Government of India, leaving the Government
of India to issue a general Act, and leaving the inter-
pretation of that Act—that is to say, the making of
Regulations—to the Local Government ?—I should
very much like to see that done if practicable.
16780. You are aware that there are Education Acts
in most countries ?•—Yes.
16781. And there is no reason why, if there are
Education Acts in other countries, there should not be
a general Education Act in India ?—Yes, but are
there Education Acts in countries which present
such diversities as India, and which have so many
independent Local Governments ? That is where the
difficulty comes in ; of course if there was a general
Act it would have to be on very broad lines indeed,
and if you had an Act on very broad lines you would
have to leave very great discretion to the Local Govern-
ments when it came to questions of detail.
16782. Do you not think that Local Governments
ought to have great discretion, particularly in the
Kiichler.
31 Dec., 1907.
96
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
paid by the department. The District Boards have
still practical control over the sub-inspectors, and even
to a larger extent than before.
16754. In what way?—With regard to the power of
transfer. In other respects they are servants of the
department.
16755. Do they look after the primary schools under
the District Boards ?—They are almost entirely con-
cerned with primary schools.
16756. Is it satisfactory that the work of the
District Boards should be done by men who are servants
of another department ?—In theory, of course, it is
unsatisfactory, but in practice it has worked pretty
well, and there has been practically no harm done.
16757. Have the District Boards the same interest
as they had before in founding new schools, and in
getting the villagers to find houses for schools, and
getting contributions from villagers, now that they
have to work through servants who are not their
servants ?—The sub-inspector understands his position ;
he is really under the Chairman of the District Board
and has to listen to his orders. I admit it is a peculiar
system.
16758. On the whole, would it be abetter arrangement
to re-transfer these officers to the District Boards, and
let the sub-inspectors work under the District Boards
as their servants?—Yes; in some ways it would, so
long as their prospects would not be interfered with.
One of the most important reasons for transferring
them to the Education Department was that they had
very poor prospects under the District Boards.
16759. Suppose increments were allowed them by
the District Boards, and they subscribed to a provident
fund, would there be any great reason for complaint ?
■—I do not think there would be any reason for com-
plaint so long as the District Boards did their duty ;
it all turns upon that. The inspectors will look after
the sub-inspecto:s ; I doubt if we can guarantee that
the District Boards will look as well after them.
16760. Would the District Boards take a little more
interest if they had to work through their own servants
in their own way ?—I can only judge from what has
happened before, when the sub-inspectors were the
servants of the District Boards, and then I cannot say
that any more interest was shown. Of course the
whole thing is largely due to the fact that, through
lack of funds, the District Boards have not been able
to do much.
16761. In other respects, with regard to fixing the
hours of attendance, the number of holidays in the
year, etc., do you not think a large amount of discretion
can be given to the District Boards, who are more in
touch with the villagers than the officers of the Educa-
tion Department ?—Yes, if they really had the primary
schools to look after.
16762. Has a District Board now the power of laying
down a rule that schools during, say, two months in
the year, should be held in the mornings, without
reference to your department ?—They would have to
refer to our department, but we would not interfere in
a matter of that kind.
16763. With regard to these matters would you have
any objection to making the rules elastic so as to give
more discretion?—No ; it is really a question of the
District Boards acting up to their duties.
16764. Does your department inspect all the colleges ?
—No, only the aided colleges and Government schools ;
the private colleges have not hitherto been inspected ;
but they are now inspected by the University under
the new Regulations.
16765. What sort of supervision by the Education
Department do you propose over private colleges ?—
We propose to encourage the system of grants-in-aid,
which will make them amenable to departmental
inspection.
16766. Would you try to encourage the establish-
ment of private colleges ?—Yes, but I think they must
be liberally aided by Government, because education
cannot be conducted as a commercial undertaking.
16767. But there may be colleges which are not
commercial undertakings ?—There may be, but not
many of them have appeared so far.
16768. {Mr. Hichens.) You expressed a view that
the Government of India should concern itself with
principles and that the details should be left to the
Local Government ; do you say that the way to tackle
the problem as to the division of authority between the
two is to decide first of all what the details are ?—I
should be quite content if a general ruling were laid
down that the Government of India should not inter-
fere in matters of detail, except in so far as they might
give advice. I do not think one could really say what
is a matter of detail and what is a matter of principle :
it would be very difficult to differentiate. You must
leave it to the commonsense of the parties concerned.
16769. If you want to avoid perpetual discussion as
to what is a detail and what is a principle, must you
no'i try and lay down some principle ?—Yes, you would
have to do that.
16770. Is not the way to deal with the problem to
lay down certain principles and to say that the inter-
pretation of those principles should rest with the Local
Government ?—If that could be done, I should welcome
it.
16771. Is it possible to lay down educational prin-
ciples of universal application, and to say that the
carrying out of those principles should rest with the
Local Government ?—It would be, to a certain extent ;
but there would always be cases in which it would be
difficult to say whether or not they came under the
general principle.
16772. Can you give me any examples of general
principles?—With regard to University education,
general principles would regulate the admission to
Universities, and would, for instance, decide the age at
which the students entered the Universities.
16773. You think that is a matter which ought to
be uniform throughout India?—Even with regard
to that, I would say that the matter of age might
perhaps be left within certain limits ; the Government
of India ought to lay down a minimum age for admis-
sion to Universities.
16774. Is it not more difficult to deal with the matter
of education as a general principle than it is to deal
with anything else ?—Yes, that is so ; I find it
exceedingly difficult to lay down a general principle
with regard to education.
16775. So that it is extremely difficult to lay down
or decree in any way the functions of the Government
of India in all respects ?—It is very difficult.
16776. Have you ever considered whether it would
be possible to pass a general Act in which the principles
in regard to education should be defined ?—I think
that would be extremely difficult; I should simply
prefer it to be laid down as a general ruling.
16777. What happens to-day is that each Local
Government frames its own regulations, which are
submitted to the Government of India for sanction ?—■
Yes, but from time to time the Government of India
itself publicly issues general resolutions on the question
of its educational policy.
16778. Is the purport of those resolutions embodied
in your Regulations ?—Yes, we have always to abide
those general Regulations, but the Government of
India go far beyond that when they come to criticise
projects which come from the Local Government.
16779 If you want to get a clearly defined line,
ought you not to depart from the principle of each
Government submitting its own defined Regulations
to the Government of India, leaving the Government
of India to issue a general Act, and leaving the inter-
pretation of that Act—that is to say, the making of
Regulations—to the Local Government ?—I should
very much like to see that done if practicable.
16780. You are aware that there are Education Acts
in most countries ?•—Yes.
16781. And there is no reason why, if there are
Education Acts in other countries, there should not be
a general Education Act in India ?—Yes, but are
there Education Acts in countries which present
such diversities as India, and which have so many
independent Local Governments ? That is where the
difficulty comes in ; of course if there was a general
Act it would have to be on very broad lines indeed,
and if you had an Act on very broad lines you would
have to leave very great discretion to the Local Govern-
ments when it came to questions of detail.
16782. Do you not think that Local Governments
ought to have great discretion, particularly in the