DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0117
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
Ill
17164. Does that interfere much with his medical
duty ?—No doubt it must.
17165. Is that to the disadvantage of his medical
work ?—There is no doubt we are very much under-
manned. Every Civil Surgeon in the province, owing
to the large distances, has far more work than he can
satisfactorily do. Ten or eleven years ago this province
sent up a scheme to the Government of India to
appoint Assistant Civil Surgeons in districts, to relieve
the Civil Surgeon of some of his work, to perform
Health Officer’s duties, inspection of vaccination, and
various matters of that kind. It was not in1 ended
that they should be members of the Indian Medical
Service ; they were intended to be of the class of
Assistant Surgeons.
17166. Has that been sanctioned ?—-It was approved ;
but the reply the Government got at the time was that
there were no funds available. It has not yet been
carried out.
17167. Are the Assistant Surgeons perfectly com-
petent to be left in charge of the big hospitals while
the Civil Surgeon is on tour ?—Many of the Assistant
Surgeons are excellent officers and very well qualified.
As a class, they are generally very able men.
17168. You do not consider the practice of the
Civil Surgeon leaving headquarters is to the prejudice
of the hospitals at headquarters?—Not for the short
periods that the Civil Surgeon is absent.
17169. Do you have many cases of the payment of
fees to Medical Officers by Indian Rajas and so on ?
Have you had much difficulty about that?—Not so
far ; it is an interference that is very much resented
by all the officers.
17170. Until recently, who was the final authority
in those matters ?—The Director-General is the final
authority, but I think he has to take the opinion of
the Government of India in some cases.
17171. When these officers attend Indian gentle-
men of position, the question has to go up to the
Director-General ?—Yes ; the question first comes up
to me, and I have to get the opinion of the Local
Government ; then it goes to the Director-General.
17172. How long has that been in force ?—Only a
few months. Before that the rule was only applicable
to Native States ; it was made applicable a few months
ago to all gentlemen of high rank and high position
all over India.
17173. Who dealt with the question of fees before
the recent order ?—So far as I recollect, the practice
then was that the Political Agent of the State sent the Col. Macrae.
matter up to Government. I do not think the Local
Government had much say in the matter.
17174. {Sir Frederic Lely.) Suppose a doctor in
charge of a large hospital wants an article of a special
make, can he get it direct from the maker or his agent,
or is he obliged to get it from the Stores Department
of the India Office ?—The rule is to get things from
the India Office at home, and we do not find it at all a
good rule.
17175. I have heard of a case where a man wanted
to get a special make of stove ; for a whole year he
tried to get it from London through the Stores Depart-
ment, and he was finally told it was not to be got,
while all the time he might have got it from a shop
across the way ; do you think that is possible ?—I
think it is very possible ; there was a similar case the
other day. We get a very large number of instruments
for our various large hospitals here and we are obliged
under the rules to ask the India Office to send them
out to us ; we ask for certain articles by certain makers,
as we know that these are good and that they suit us
best, but very often we do not get them at all ; they
send us inferior articles by different makers. Some
instruments were shown to me the other day at the
General Hospital which had arrived from the India
Office ; several of them were unfit for use.
17176. Apart from the purely business point of
view, does it not stimulate professional zeal for a man
to be able to get promptly some article which he knows
to be of modern make and special use ?—Certainly.
17177. If he has to wait a year for it, he may, when
it eventually arrives, have left the place, and his suc-
cessor may get the benefit of it ?—Exactly.
17178. You say medical subordinates in the mufassal
are appointed entirely by the District Board ?—The
local native doctors are. They very often ask me to
give them a Government medical subordinate. I then
select a man from my list and send him.
17179. If the District Board become dissatisfied with
him, can.they send him back to you?—They cannot
send him back without my permission.
17180. If they have a complaint against him do you
enquire into it, and, if satisfied that there is something
in the complaint, do you take your man back ?—Yes.
17181. If you are not satisfied do you insist on his
remaining, in defiance of the District Board ?—No, I
should not think that that is ever likely to happen.
(77ie witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
TWENTY-FIFTH DAY.
Calcutta, Friday, ?>rd January, 1908.
PRESENT :
0. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
Sir Frederic Lely, K C.I.E., C.S.I. W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S. W. L. Hichens, Esq.
R. 0. Dutt, Esq., C.I.E.
Mr. F. F. LYALL was called and examined.
17182. {Chairman). You are Collector of Bhagalpur ?
—Yes.
17183. What is the size of the Bhagalpur district?—
It is 4,226 square miles. I have been there twenty
months.
There is a marked tendency at present to give
extended powers to the lowest officers in the chain of
Government. There is undoubtedly excessive reporting,
and there are many points in which the functions of
the Board and of the Commissioner overlap, but the
items on which extended powers might be given to
Collectors are few and unimportant. I do not think
any delegation to Sub-Divisional Officers in this respect
is advisable.
I would give District Officers a considerable sum,
say, Rs. 5,000 per annum, to spend on any require-
ments of the district, subject to post-audit and not to
pre-audit. Commissioners are similarly given sums to
allot to various districts in their divisions. The dis-
tribution of these entails an enormous amount of cor-
respondence, as the Commissioner has to sanction and
scrutinize each item on returns submitted by District
Mr. F. F.
Lyall.
3 Jan., 1908.
Ill
17164. Does that interfere much with his medical
duty ?—No doubt it must.
17165. Is that to the disadvantage of his medical
work ?—There is no doubt we are very much under-
manned. Every Civil Surgeon in the province, owing
to the large distances, has far more work than he can
satisfactorily do. Ten or eleven years ago this province
sent up a scheme to the Government of India to
appoint Assistant Civil Surgeons in districts, to relieve
the Civil Surgeon of some of his work, to perform
Health Officer’s duties, inspection of vaccination, and
various matters of that kind. It was not in1 ended
that they should be members of the Indian Medical
Service ; they were intended to be of the class of
Assistant Surgeons.
17166. Has that been sanctioned ?—-It was approved ;
but the reply the Government got at the time was that
there were no funds available. It has not yet been
carried out.
17167. Are the Assistant Surgeons perfectly com-
petent to be left in charge of the big hospitals while
the Civil Surgeon is on tour ?—Many of the Assistant
Surgeons are excellent officers and very well qualified.
As a class, they are generally very able men.
17168. You do not consider the practice of the
Civil Surgeon leaving headquarters is to the prejudice
of the hospitals at headquarters?—Not for the short
periods that the Civil Surgeon is absent.
17169. Do you have many cases of the payment of
fees to Medical Officers by Indian Rajas and so on ?
Have you had much difficulty about that?—Not so
far ; it is an interference that is very much resented
by all the officers.
17170. Until recently, who was the final authority
in those matters ?—The Director-General is the final
authority, but I think he has to take the opinion of
the Government of India in some cases.
17171. When these officers attend Indian gentle-
men of position, the question has to go up to the
Director-General ?—Yes ; the question first comes up
to me, and I have to get the opinion of the Local
Government ; then it goes to the Director-General.
17172. How long has that been in force ?—Only a
few months. Before that the rule was only applicable
to Native States ; it was made applicable a few months
ago to all gentlemen of high rank and high position
all over India.
17173. Who dealt with the question of fees before
the recent order ?—So far as I recollect, the practice
then was that the Political Agent of the State sent the Col. Macrae.
matter up to Government. I do not think the Local
Government had much say in the matter.
17174. {Sir Frederic Lely.) Suppose a doctor in
charge of a large hospital wants an article of a special
make, can he get it direct from the maker or his agent,
or is he obliged to get it from the Stores Department
of the India Office ?—The rule is to get things from
the India Office at home, and we do not find it at all a
good rule.
17175. I have heard of a case where a man wanted
to get a special make of stove ; for a whole year he
tried to get it from London through the Stores Depart-
ment, and he was finally told it was not to be got,
while all the time he might have got it from a shop
across the way ; do you think that is possible ?—I
think it is very possible ; there was a similar case the
other day. We get a very large number of instruments
for our various large hospitals here and we are obliged
under the rules to ask the India Office to send them
out to us ; we ask for certain articles by certain makers,
as we know that these are good and that they suit us
best, but very often we do not get them at all ; they
send us inferior articles by different makers. Some
instruments were shown to me the other day at the
General Hospital which had arrived from the India
Office ; several of them were unfit for use.
17176. Apart from the purely business point of
view, does it not stimulate professional zeal for a man
to be able to get promptly some article which he knows
to be of modern make and special use ?—Certainly.
17177. If he has to wait a year for it, he may, when
it eventually arrives, have left the place, and his suc-
cessor may get the benefit of it ?—Exactly.
17178. You say medical subordinates in the mufassal
are appointed entirely by the District Board ?—The
local native doctors are. They very often ask me to
give them a Government medical subordinate. I then
select a man from my list and send him.
17179. If the District Board become dissatisfied with
him, can.they send him back to you?—They cannot
send him back without my permission.
17180. If they have a complaint against him do you
enquire into it, and, if satisfied that there is something
in the complaint, do you take your man back ?—Yes.
17181. If you are not satisfied do you insist on his
remaining, in defiance of the District Board ?—No, I
should not think that that is ever likely to happen.
(77ie witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
TWENTY-FIFTH DAY.
Calcutta, Friday, ?>rd January, 1908.
PRESENT :
0. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
Sir Frederic Lely, K C.I.E., C.S.I. W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S. W. L. Hichens, Esq.
R. 0. Dutt, Esq., C.I.E.
Mr. F. F. LYALL was called and examined.
17182. {Chairman). You are Collector of Bhagalpur ?
—Yes.
17183. What is the size of the Bhagalpur district?—
It is 4,226 square miles. I have been there twenty
months.
There is a marked tendency at present to give
extended powers to the lowest officers in the chain of
Government. There is undoubtedly excessive reporting,
and there are many points in which the functions of
the Board and of the Commissioner overlap, but the
items on which extended powers might be given to
Collectors are few and unimportant. I do not think
any delegation to Sub-Divisional Officers in this respect
is advisable.
I would give District Officers a considerable sum,
say, Rs. 5,000 per annum, to spend on any require-
ments of the district, subject to post-audit and not to
pre-audit. Commissioners are similarly given sums to
allot to various districts in their divisions. The dis-
tribution of these entails an enormous amount of cor-
respondence, as the Commissioner has to sanction and
scrutinize each item on returns submitted by District
Mr. F. F.
Lyall.
3 Jan., 1908.