DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0144
Mr. J. W
Duke.
3 Jan., 1908
138
minutes or evidence:
that one does not see ; but the Commissioner’s voice
ought to have great weight as to the order in which
works are taken up and, with certain classes of work,
as to whether they are taken up at all. It should not
be altogether left to departmental decision.
17816. With regard to delegation, would you dele-
gate some powers from the District Officer to the
Sub-Divisional Officer ?—Yes, I should be inclined to
delegate a good many powers that are now exercised
solely by the District Officer to the Sub-Divisional
Officer, and I should like that the delegation of certain
powers might be more distinctly recognised than it is.
I mean that a man can tell a Deputy Collector to do
work, but the responsibility remains with him. I
should like it to be possible for the responsibility in
many cases to be transferred, so that the Deputy
Collector should be the responsible man, and know
that he is the responsible man.
1.7817. We have been told that compared with
Madras, Bengal districts are top-heavy—that there is
not a sufficient number of lower officers at the bottom ;
do you agree with that view ?—I think we do not
provide sufficient authorities sufficiently close to the
people for the decision of petty matters. They have
to take petty matters into Courts which are of too
high a grade to deal with such matters.
17818. Following upon that, would you like to
have, as there are in Madras, smaller circles within
sub-divisions, with a Sub-Deputy Collector in charge
of each circle to do the revenue work there, and also to
dispose of some judicial work within his own circle ?—
Sub-Deputy Collectors are, as a rule, now very inex-
perienced, and if they are good men they are very
rapidly promoted to Deputy Collectors. I do not
quite regard the Sub-Deputy Collector as the class of
man to exercise much independent authority away
from a superior ; that is the objection I have.
17819. But if you could provide a better class of
officers, would that idea generally commend itself to
you—to have smaller circles so as to bring these officers
more in touch with the people ?—I should be in favour
of any change which brought the authorities more in
touch with the people locally.
17820. Are Deputy Collectors generally efficient and
able officers ?—As large a proportion as can be expected.
17821. How are they now appointed ?—To the
extent of two-thirds or more by a system of selection
between the Commissioner and the District Officers.
17822. Is that an improvement on the old system ?
—I think so. We have no difficulty in obtaining men
of any educational standard that is desired ; we are
able to select men of better physique, and better family
connections and traditions. One cannot judge yet
how the men will turn out ; one can only judge by the
appearance of the men.
17823. Primary education is to some extent now
managed by the Education Department ?—The general
principles and policy are laid down by the Education
Department, the details are administered and the
money allotted by the District Boards. Usually they
may delegate their powers to Local Boards ; I do not
think they often do.
17824. Ought it to be left more to the Local Boards
and District Boards to be managed by their own
agency ?—I cannot say that it impresses me in that
way. The Local Boards and District Boards might
have the administration of the grants, as indeed they
have at present, but I do not think they are in a
position to maintain for themselves a sufficiently well-
qualified separate educational agency ; it is only by
having a Provincial Service that sufficiently good men
can be attracted.
17825. Were not the sub-inspectors of schools
servants of the District Board before ?—Yes.
17826. Under the old arrangement could they get
more co-operation from villagers themselves in the
way of providing school-houses or supporting the guru
or otherwise?-—I am not aware that there was any
difference in that respect.
17827. (Mr. /lichens.) I understand your view to be
that in regard to technical subjects like Public Works
and police, and so forth, the Commissioner should be
fully consulted and have ample opportunity of ex-
pressing his opinion, but that he should not be given
executive power ?—In the case of a difference of
opinion between the Commissioner and the depart-
mental authority I think the Government should decide.
17828. You would not put the police or Public
Works of a division directly under the Commissioner?
—Not the establishments. I see no advantage in
doing it.
17829. Is there a certain advantage in running
technical departments of that sort from the centre for
the whole of the province ?—I do not think you have
any chance of obtaining improvements and keeping
the thing up to date unless you have experts at the
head.
17830. Has the Commissioner a fund which he can
spend at his own discretion ?—He has two funds at
present, one for minor Public Works, which might be
increased both as regards the total amount of the
allotment and the size of the works ; the other is
called a fund for removing defects in local institu-
tions ; it is mostly given away to hospitals and other
institutions run by local committees. I do not wish
to devote these two funds to other objects, but they
might be somewhat increased, especially in regard to
Public Works.
17831. What sort of increase would you suggest?—
The present limit of work is Rs. 2,500 ; that might be
doubled or trebled ; that would cover most minor
institutions; it would enable the Commissioner to
sanction a small hospital for instance.
17832. Your view is that a man of the status of a
Collector should remain ten years in the same district ?
—I said in the same division.
17833. Should he, if possible, remain ten years in
the same district ?—No. I think a man can do most
of what he is capable of doing in a district in about
f.our or five years ; at the end of that time he will
probably want furlough, and it is just as well that he
should begin somewhere else after furlough ; he is
likely to become stale, and there is an advantage in
having new blood in. My idea is that a man can do
all he can do for a district in five years ; there are, no
doubt, exceptional cases ; there is no doubt there
have been men in India who have made districts ; but
ordinarily a man is inclined to become stale after four
or five years in the same place, with the same work,
and the same surroundings.
17834. You think that acting appointments should
be filled by junior officers, for purposes of adminis-
trative convenience, to prevent transfers, for example ?
Supposing no extra pay were given to the officers who
were passed over, taking the whole length of a man’s
service, would any injustice be likely to arise?—
Probably not in the long run, and Government have
the means of compensating a man indirectly ; if he
was passed over one year, for instance, they might
subsequently break the rule of transfer and give him
some particularly desirable place ; in some way or
other they could make it up to him. No injustice
need necessarily be done. Permanent promotion, of
course, would go on all the time.
17835. (Chairman.) I understand the Rs. 5,000
allotted to you is not given to you to spend on your
own initiative, but it is to be spent on objects which
you approve ?—I select the works from lists submitted
by all the districts.
17836. What is the manner in which you spend the
Rs. 10,000 which are now allotted to you by the
Government to be spent entirely at your discretion ?
—There are two such grants ; there is the Public
Works grant and there is the grant for the removal of
defects in minor institutions. I always get rid of the
latter on local inspection ; I inspect as much as I can
of my division in each year ; when I go through the
hospitals and dispensaries I ask what they want and
they mention a particular work ; I say “ If I give you
half will you provide half.” That is spent entirely
at my own discretion.
17837. Does the expenditure of that sum involve
any correspondence at all with your subordinates ?—
The Collector would usually be present at the time of
inspection. I keep the money in hand until I have
been round these places and seen what their wants are ;
I go round the municipality probably with the Chair-
man and Vice-Chairman ; they point out to me, or I
see, that there is something wanting in their dis-
pensary or something wrong with their water-supply ;
I simply say “ I will give you so much if you write
and mention the facts,” and it is done ; it causes no
correspondence worth mentioning.
(The witness withdrew.)
Duke.
3 Jan., 1908
138
minutes or evidence:
that one does not see ; but the Commissioner’s voice
ought to have great weight as to the order in which
works are taken up and, with certain classes of work,
as to whether they are taken up at all. It should not
be altogether left to departmental decision.
17816. With regard to delegation, would you dele-
gate some powers from the District Officer to the
Sub-Divisional Officer ?—Yes, I should be inclined to
delegate a good many powers that are now exercised
solely by the District Officer to the Sub-Divisional
Officer, and I should like that the delegation of certain
powers might be more distinctly recognised than it is.
I mean that a man can tell a Deputy Collector to do
work, but the responsibility remains with him. I
should like it to be possible for the responsibility in
many cases to be transferred, so that the Deputy
Collector should be the responsible man, and know
that he is the responsible man.
1.7817. We have been told that compared with
Madras, Bengal districts are top-heavy—that there is
not a sufficient number of lower officers at the bottom ;
do you agree with that view ?—I think we do not
provide sufficient authorities sufficiently close to the
people for the decision of petty matters. They have
to take petty matters into Courts which are of too
high a grade to deal with such matters.
17818. Following upon that, would you like to
have, as there are in Madras, smaller circles within
sub-divisions, with a Sub-Deputy Collector in charge
of each circle to do the revenue work there, and also to
dispose of some judicial work within his own circle ?—
Sub-Deputy Collectors are, as a rule, now very inex-
perienced, and if they are good men they are very
rapidly promoted to Deputy Collectors. I do not
quite regard the Sub-Deputy Collector as the class of
man to exercise much independent authority away
from a superior ; that is the objection I have.
17819. But if you could provide a better class of
officers, would that idea generally commend itself to
you—to have smaller circles so as to bring these officers
more in touch with the people ?—I should be in favour
of any change which brought the authorities more in
touch with the people locally.
17820. Are Deputy Collectors generally efficient and
able officers ?—As large a proportion as can be expected.
17821. How are they now appointed ?—To the
extent of two-thirds or more by a system of selection
between the Commissioner and the District Officers.
17822. Is that an improvement on the old system ?
—I think so. We have no difficulty in obtaining men
of any educational standard that is desired ; we are
able to select men of better physique, and better family
connections and traditions. One cannot judge yet
how the men will turn out ; one can only judge by the
appearance of the men.
17823. Primary education is to some extent now
managed by the Education Department ?—The general
principles and policy are laid down by the Education
Department, the details are administered and the
money allotted by the District Boards. Usually they
may delegate their powers to Local Boards ; I do not
think they often do.
17824. Ought it to be left more to the Local Boards
and District Boards to be managed by their own
agency ?—I cannot say that it impresses me in that
way. The Local Boards and District Boards might
have the administration of the grants, as indeed they
have at present, but I do not think they are in a
position to maintain for themselves a sufficiently well-
qualified separate educational agency ; it is only by
having a Provincial Service that sufficiently good men
can be attracted.
17825. Were not the sub-inspectors of schools
servants of the District Board before ?—Yes.
17826. Under the old arrangement could they get
more co-operation from villagers themselves in the
way of providing school-houses or supporting the guru
or otherwise?-—I am not aware that there was any
difference in that respect.
17827. (Mr. /lichens.) I understand your view to be
that in regard to technical subjects like Public Works
and police, and so forth, the Commissioner should be
fully consulted and have ample opportunity of ex-
pressing his opinion, but that he should not be given
executive power ?—In the case of a difference of
opinion between the Commissioner and the depart-
mental authority I think the Government should decide.
17828. You would not put the police or Public
Works of a division directly under the Commissioner?
—Not the establishments. I see no advantage in
doing it.
17829. Is there a certain advantage in running
technical departments of that sort from the centre for
the whole of the province ?—I do not think you have
any chance of obtaining improvements and keeping
the thing up to date unless you have experts at the
head.
17830. Has the Commissioner a fund which he can
spend at his own discretion ?—He has two funds at
present, one for minor Public Works, which might be
increased both as regards the total amount of the
allotment and the size of the works ; the other is
called a fund for removing defects in local institu-
tions ; it is mostly given away to hospitals and other
institutions run by local committees. I do not wish
to devote these two funds to other objects, but they
might be somewhat increased, especially in regard to
Public Works.
17831. What sort of increase would you suggest?—
The present limit of work is Rs. 2,500 ; that might be
doubled or trebled ; that would cover most minor
institutions; it would enable the Commissioner to
sanction a small hospital for instance.
17832. Your view is that a man of the status of a
Collector should remain ten years in the same district ?
—I said in the same division.
17833. Should he, if possible, remain ten years in
the same district ?—No. I think a man can do most
of what he is capable of doing in a district in about
f.our or five years ; at the end of that time he will
probably want furlough, and it is just as well that he
should begin somewhere else after furlough ; he is
likely to become stale, and there is an advantage in
having new blood in. My idea is that a man can do
all he can do for a district in five years ; there are, no
doubt, exceptional cases ; there is no doubt there
have been men in India who have made districts ; but
ordinarily a man is inclined to become stale after four
or five years in the same place, with the same work,
and the same surroundings.
17834. You think that acting appointments should
be filled by junior officers, for purposes of adminis-
trative convenience, to prevent transfers, for example ?
Supposing no extra pay were given to the officers who
were passed over, taking the whole length of a man’s
service, would any injustice be likely to arise?—
Probably not in the long run, and Government have
the means of compensating a man indirectly ; if he
was passed over one year, for instance, they might
subsequently break the rule of transfer and give him
some particularly desirable place ; in some way or
other they could make it up to him. No injustice
need necessarily be done. Permanent promotion, of
course, would go on all the time.
17835. (Chairman.) I understand the Rs. 5,000
allotted to you is not given to you to spend on your
own initiative, but it is to be spent on objects which
you approve ?—I select the works from lists submitted
by all the districts.
17836. What is the manner in which you spend the
Rs. 10,000 which are now allotted to you by the
Government to be spent entirely at your discretion ?
—There are two such grants ; there is the Public
Works grant and there is the grant for the removal of
defects in minor institutions. I always get rid of the
latter on local inspection ; I inspect as much as I can
of my division in each year ; when I go through the
hospitals and dispensaries I ask what they want and
they mention a particular work ; I say “ If I give you
half will you provide half.” That is spent entirely
at my own discretion.
17837. Does the expenditure of that sum involve
any correspondence at all with your subordinates ?—
The Collector would usually be present at the time of
inspection. I keep the money in hand until I have
been round these places and seen what their wants are ;
I go round the municipality probably with the Chair-
man and Vice-Chairman ; they point out to me, or I
see, that there is something wanting in their dis-
pensary or something wrong with their water-supply ;
I simply say “ I will give you so much if you write
and mention the facts,” and it is done ; it causes no
correspondence worth mentioning.
(The witness withdrew.)