DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0148
142
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Dr. A.
Campbell.
3 Jan., 1908.
The
Maharaja
Bahadur of
Darbhanga,
4 Jan., 1908.
examination in, and get a reward for, an allied language.
That I believe is not allowed. For instance, if a man
were to pass in Santali, he would not be allowed to
pass in Mundari; if a man passes in Hindi, he is not
allowed to pass in these village dialects.
17869. If the Local Board allotted the money which
they have to expend, would it not be most likely that
every member would struggle to get the appropriation
for his own village ?—I do not think so ; my experience
is that the ordinary Bengali gentleman does not care
much for a road. He cares for water-supply.
17870. Does the “ Bengali gentleman ” get upon the
Board ?—Some of them do. They are not representa-
tive of the rural people, because they have little con-
nection with the villages except collecting rents.
District Boards are made up of that class, and the
pleader class.
17871. Would not power given to the village com-
munity, mean power given to the zamindar ?—No. He
has not sufficient influence over the popular choice.
17872. You say that if an official is at the head
of the District Board, the people will not take an
independent part in the business ; does it not very
much depend on the official?—I hardly think so.
The Government generally have made up their minds
to certain things ; for instance, with regard to these
Dislrict Boards, the Government generally make up
their mind to a certain line of action, and they expect
the Collector to carry it out.
17873. You speak of the chaukidars, who were
formerly recompensed in kind and now receive a
monthly pay ; would you advocate returning to pay-
ment in kind ; would that not be difficult ?—It would
not be difficult. I fancy the villagers would like it.
Money is so very scarce, the tax is collected at long
intervals, and it is very hard for a man at times to
pay up so many annas ; they prefer payment in kind.
If the village chaukidar was given a piece of land as
remuneration that would be best of all.
(77iv witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
TWENTY-SIXTH DAY.
Calcutta, Saturday, January kth, 1908.
PRESENT :
C. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
Sir Frederic Lely, K.C.I.E., C.S.I. W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S. W. L. Hichens, Esq.
R. C. Dutt, Esq., C.I.E.j
The Maharaja Bahadur of Darbhanga was called and examined.
17874. {Chairman.) What position do you hold ?—I
am a zamindar in Behar. I have been a member of
the Bengal Council. I have been a member of the
Statutory Civil Service, and at present I am a member
of the Indian Legislative Council. I have not been
either a member or chairman of a municipality or
District Board.
Executive Officers have quite enough work on their
hands already without being entrusted with larger
powers or heavier responsibilities.
As regards appeals, I would leave matters as they
are. It would be very hard to insist upon a certificate
from the Officer whose order is appealed against.
Executive Officers are too hard worked in other
directions for them to be able to afford the necessary
time for personal contact with the people. Want of
time and tact are the principal obstacles in the way of
a better understanding. Freer intercourse is most
desirable in the interest of che Rulers and the Ruled.
District Officers 'Should devote one hour a day at least
of their time for personal interviews or similar
means of meeting the people, and should not be sent to
a district of the vernacular of which they are ignorant.
I would divide the Patna Division into two Com-
missionerships, but have no other suggestions to offer.
Transfers may be reduced if the Governments act in
consultation with the Commissioners of divisions and
District Officers.
Municipalities and District Boards may be allowed
to elect their own Chairman whenever practicable.
I am strongly in favour of creating Councils in all
divisions and districts and sub-divisions. They should
be formed on the same principles, on a smaller scale,
as the Advisory Councils of the Local Government.
They may be consulted individually and collectively at
the discretion of the Head of the local division. It
should not be necessary to give opinions in writing.
The members should be recruited from the aristo-
cracy, the trading, manufacturing, industrial classes
and the Bar, heads of religious sects, and other in-
fluential persons in the division or district. Their
duties should be settled on the same lines as those
of the Councils for the Local Government. The Ad-
ministrative Councils may be recruited from the same
sources with the addition of an official element. If it
be intended to make these Councils popular, the official
element should not form a majority. The jurisdic-
tions of these Councils should extend over all matters
which are at present within the scope of the District
Boards and municipalities. The Local Government
may from time to time, after the utility of these
councils has been demonstrated, give power to them to
dispose of other questions.
Powers may be given to village communities with
regard to local questions relating to revenue, police,
sanitation, and education, but very sparingly with
reference to civil and criminal cases. The experiment
can be tried in a few localities and gradually extended,
if successful, to others.
17875. What position did you hold in the Statutory
Civil Service?—I was Assistant and Joint-Magistrate
for a short time. It was more than 20 years ago since
I resigned.
17876. In those days did the officers of the Civil
Service find their work very heavy ?—I served under
Sir A. MacDonnell, who was one of the best Collectors
in the Service, and his work was very heavy, as he
always made it very heavy.
17877. Did he find much time for touring ?—Yes.
He saw a great deal of the residents of the districts.
He was quite an exceptional man.
17878. Is there any diffidence on the part of Indian
gentlemen in approaching the Commissioner or the
Collector ?—I think there is. It is due to want of
sympathy on both sides, and want of time on the part
of the officers generally.
17879. Could any means be adopted by which better
feelings could be restored between the officials and the
people ?—If it is understood that accessibility and
courtesy will be considered before transferring or
sending a man to a district or a division, it would have
some effect. There is an impression generally on the
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Dr. A.
Campbell.
3 Jan., 1908.
The
Maharaja
Bahadur of
Darbhanga,
4 Jan., 1908.
examination in, and get a reward for, an allied language.
That I believe is not allowed. For instance, if a man
were to pass in Santali, he would not be allowed to
pass in Mundari; if a man passes in Hindi, he is not
allowed to pass in these village dialects.
17869. If the Local Board allotted the money which
they have to expend, would it not be most likely that
every member would struggle to get the appropriation
for his own village ?—I do not think so ; my experience
is that the ordinary Bengali gentleman does not care
much for a road. He cares for water-supply.
17870. Does the “ Bengali gentleman ” get upon the
Board ?—Some of them do. They are not representa-
tive of the rural people, because they have little con-
nection with the villages except collecting rents.
District Boards are made up of that class, and the
pleader class.
17871. Would not power given to the village com-
munity, mean power given to the zamindar ?—No. He
has not sufficient influence over the popular choice.
17872. You say that if an official is at the head
of the District Board, the people will not take an
independent part in the business ; does it not very
much depend on the official?—I hardly think so.
The Government generally have made up their minds
to certain things ; for instance, with regard to these
Dislrict Boards, the Government generally make up
their mind to a certain line of action, and they expect
the Collector to carry it out.
17873. You speak of the chaukidars, who were
formerly recompensed in kind and now receive a
monthly pay ; would you advocate returning to pay-
ment in kind ; would that not be difficult ?—It would
not be difficult. I fancy the villagers would like it.
Money is so very scarce, the tax is collected at long
intervals, and it is very hard for a man at times to
pay up so many annas ; they prefer payment in kind.
If the village chaukidar was given a piece of land as
remuneration that would be best of all.
(77iv witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
TWENTY-SIXTH DAY.
Calcutta, Saturday, January kth, 1908.
PRESENT :
C. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
Sir Frederic Lely, K.C.I.E., C.S.I. W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S. W. L. Hichens, Esq.
R. C. Dutt, Esq., C.I.E.j
The Maharaja Bahadur of Darbhanga was called and examined.
17874. {Chairman.) What position do you hold ?—I
am a zamindar in Behar. I have been a member of
the Bengal Council. I have been a member of the
Statutory Civil Service, and at present I am a member
of the Indian Legislative Council. I have not been
either a member or chairman of a municipality or
District Board.
Executive Officers have quite enough work on their
hands already without being entrusted with larger
powers or heavier responsibilities.
As regards appeals, I would leave matters as they
are. It would be very hard to insist upon a certificate
from the Officer whose order is appealed against.
Executive Officers are too hard worked in other
directions for them to be able to afford the necessary
time for personal contact with the people. Want of
time and tact are the principal obstacles in the way of
a better understanding. Freer intercourse is most
desirable in the interest of che Rulers and the Ruled.
District Officers 'Should devote one hour a day at least
of their time for personal interviews or similar
means of meeting the people, and should not be sent to
a district of the vernacular of which they are ignorant.
I would divide the Patna Division into two Com-
missionerships, but have no other suggestions to offer.
Transfers may be reduced if the Governments act in
consultation with the Commissioners of divisions and
District Officers.
Municipalities and District Boards may be allowed
to elect their own Chairman whenever practicable.
I am strongly in favour of creating Councils in all
divisions and districts and sub-divisions. They should
be formed on the same principles, on a smaller scale,
as the Advisory Councils of the Local Government.
They may be consulted individually and collectively at
the discretion of the Head of the local division. It
should not be necessary to give opinions in writing.
The members should be recruited from the aristo-
cracy, the trading, manufacturing, industrial classes
and the Bar, heads of religious sects, and other in-
fluential persons in the division or district. Their
duties should be settled on the same lines as those
of the Councils for the Local Government. The Ad-
ministrative Councils may be recruited from the same
sources with the addition of an official element. If it
be intended to make these Councils popular, the official
element should not form a majority. The jurisdic-
tions of these Councils should extend over all matters
which are at present within the scope of the District
Boards and municipalities. The Local Government
may from time to time, after the utility of these
councils has been demonstrated, give power to them to
dispose of other questions.
Powers may be given to village communities with
regard to local questions relating to revenue, police,
sanitation, and education, but very sparingly with
reference to civil and criminal cases. The experiment
can be tried in a few localities and gradually extended,
if successful, to others.
17875. What position did you hold in the Statutory
Civil Service?—I was Assistant and Joint-Magistrate
for a short time. It was more than 20 years ago since
I resigned.
17876. In those days did the officers of the Civil
Service find their work very heavy ?—I served under
Sir A. MacDonnell, who was one of the best Collectors
in the Service, and his work was very heavy, as he
always made it very heavy.
17877. Did he find much time for touring ?—Yes.
He saw a great deal of the residents of the districts.
He was quite an exceptional man.
17878. Is there any diffidence on the part of Indian
gentlemen in approaching the Commissioner or the
Collector ?—I think there is. It is due to want of
sympathy on both sides, and want of time on the part
of the officers generally.
17879. Could any means be adopted by which better
feelings could be restored between the officials and the
people ?—If it is understood that accessibility and
courtesy will be considered before transferring or
sending a man to a district or a division, it would have
some effect. There is an impression generally on the