DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0156
150
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Sir Gooroo 18050. Have you considered at all what subjects
Das might be referred to such Advisory Councils ?—No, I
Dannerjee. cannot say that I have carefully considered the matter.
28 Jaw.. 1908. 18051. Are you in a position to say whether the
__ people who would ba members of such Advisory
Councils are people who are consulted in practice by
the Collectors to-day ?—I could not say anything
definitely, but there is one class of people who are not
likely to be consulted now, consisting of men who
are of an unobstrusive nature who do not like to
thrust themselves upon the attention of Government
officers unless they are expressly asked to do so.
That class I consider to be the most useful class to
consult.
18052. But perhaps the Magistrate does consult
them ?—It is very difficult for him to get hold of
people of that class.
18053. Then ho v could he get hold of them to sit
on an Advisory Council ?—By consulting the best of
those, he would come into contact with men who
would give in their names.
18054. All of which he might do to-day without an
Advisory Council ? —Yes, he might, if so inclined.
18055. (Mr. Meyer.) Do you mean that it is diffi-
cult for a Collector, especially if he is new to the
district, to discover gentlemen such as you mention,
who would be able to give him valuable advice, and
therefore, when once a Collector has discovered them
and got them put upon an Advisory Council, they
■w ould be valuable advisers to any successor ?—
Quite so.
18056. As regards appeals, is it not the ordinary
procedure in civil and criminal jurisdiction not to
allow a second appeal on questions of fact ?—In civil
matters, unless the subject matter in dispute exceeds
a certain limit in value, the second appeal is confined
to questions of law ; in criminal matters there has
been some difference of -opinion, but there is no hard-
and-fast rule limiting such appeals to questions of
law ; questions of fact are gone into in criminal cases
on revision.
18057. Would you see any objection to applying the
same principle to administrative appeals and appeals
against matters connected with disciplinary action in
respect to public servants ?—I would rather not im-
pose those restrictions in regard to administrative
matters, because in administrative matters, to begin
with, there are no hard-and-fast rules. In judicial
matters there are hard-and-fast rules the operation of
which is salutary and some safeguard is given that all
the evidence will be gone into in the first instance,
whereas in administrative matters the same safeguard
might not exist ; therefore I would leave matters less
hampered by hard-and-fast rules in respect of admin-
istrative matters.
18058. Are you aware that in the case of Govern-
ment servants there is a standing rule that all charges
against them must be reduced to writing and shown to
them, and that they have full opportunity of calling
evidence ?—Yes.
18059. Are there not occasionally, as in every
nationality, designing persons who try to make friends
with Collectors and other European officers for their
own profit and ends ?—No doubt there are such men —
I cannot say there are not.
18060. Is it not possible that if a European officer
has found, especially when he is young in the Service,
that men of that sort have sought his acquaintance and
used it for bad ends, he keeps himself aloof in future
so as to prevent his confidence being abused again?—
Yes, that is quite within the range of possibility, but
here again there is one thing to be borne in mind,
namely, that there are so many points of diversity
between an Englishman and an Indian, that an
Englishman is liable to misunderstand an Indian, and
it may be that from misconception or misunderstand-
ing, an Englishman might set down an Indian as a bad
man when there was no reason for it.
18061. But may it not also be that an Indian occa-
sionally misunderstands an Englishman and puts down
to rudeness what the Englishman never intended as
such ?—Certainly.
18062. Is the existing system of education too uni-
form ? - It is too uniform.
18063. Do you apply that to the University system
mainly ?—Yes.
18064. Would it be better, for instance, to allow
local bodies to work schools with less regard to the
cast-iron restrictions of a provincial Education Code ?
—I think it would have a salutary effect at least in
one direction. The education problem being a new
problem in this country, where education is imparted
mostly through the medium of a foreign language,
different lines of experiments may be tried with
advantage, the results determining which lines shall
be followed, and that some diversity would be very
desirable.
18065. Are you not at present engaged in a very
interesting experiment in education ?—Yes, we are.
18066. Is your object to start a curriculum of edu-
cation which is not quite in accordance with the
general line pursued by the University ?—Yes.
18067. Would j ou like to see more freedom gene-
rally for people to develop education on their own
lines ?—Yes.
18068. Would it be necessary still to have the
results tested by Government officers ?—-I would stop
at testing—it would not be by Government officers,
but by trustworthy examiners.
18069. As regards panchayats you say you would be
inclined, if they were carefully selected, to give
them the decision of petty civil and criminal cases ;
would you make their decisions final ?—-No, except in
very petty cases where the interests at stake have no
lasting value.
18070. In a small dispute with regard to movable
property worth a few rupees for instance, or in any
petty case of assault would you have finality ?—Yes.
18071. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) I suppose the pro-
perty at issue in matters of administrative appeal is
sometimes of very great importance to one or the
other of the litigants ?—Yes.
18072. Supposing there is a great difference in the
wealth of two litigants would not the multiplicity of
appeals be a source of great danger to the poor man ?
—It would be a source of great trouble to him, but
I cannot see that it is a source of danger, because the
Appeal Court if it reverses the decision of the First
Court will do so only where there are good and valid
reasons clearly made out, so that, so far as the stability
of a just decision goes, an appeal is not fraught with
danger. Of course so far as the costs and harassment
go there may be that difficulty in the way of appeals
being allowed, but the question must always be con-
sidered from a relative and not from an absolute point
of view ; relatively the proportion of good that results
from allowing these appeals would outweigh any
possible hardship.
18073. Do you think that if a litigant has won in
the first two Courts he should be carried on from
Court to Court ?—Yes, in civil cases that is so at the
present day, and after all the result in the end is not
very harmful.
18074. On a civil appeal you cannot go into the
whole facts of a case, but only into the law. Is it not
different on the administrative side ?—Unless a good
point is made out the appellate authority will only
look to the regularity of the procedure and things of
that sort and accept the decision, if it is a concurrent
one, of two Lower Courts as binding upon it.
(The witness withdrew.)
The Hon. Babu Bhupendranath Basu was called and examined.
Bahn
Bhupendra-
nath Basu.
28 Jan., 1908.
18075. (Chairman.) Where do you reside ?—My
residence is generally in Calcutta, but I am a resident
of the district of Hooghly in Bengal. I have been a
solicitor of the High Court for the last 25 years and
also a vakil of that Court ; I have been a Fellow of
the Calcutta University for a great number of years
and have twice represented the University in the
Council ; I am a member of the Indian Association,
and of the Bengal Land Holders and the British India
Associations.
Within the limits of its budget, where the expendi-
ture may be met out of revenue and where such
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Sir Gooroo 18050. Have you considered at all what subjects
Das might be referred to such Advisory Councils ?—No, I
Dannerjee. cannot say that I have carefully considered the matter.
28 Jaw.. 1908. 18051. Are you in a position to say whether the
__ people who would ba members of such Advisory
Councils are people who are consulted in practice by
the Collectors to-day ?—I could not say anything
definitely, but there is one class of people who are not
likely to be consulted now, consisting of men who
are of an unobstrusive nature who do not like to
thrust themselves upon the attention of Government
officers unless they are expressly asked to do so.
That class I consider to be the most useful class to
consult.
18052. But perhaps the Magistrate does consult
them ?—It is very difficult for him to get hold of
people of that class.
18053. Then ho v could he get hold of them to sit
on an Advisory Council ?—By consulting the best of
those, he would come into contact with men who
would give in their names.
18054. All of which he might do to-day without an
Advisory Council ? —Yes, he might, if so inclined.
18055. (Mr. Meyer.) Do you mean that it is diffi-
cult for a Collector, especially if he is new to the
district, to discover gentlemen such as you mention,
who would be able to give him valuable advice, and
therefore, when once a Collector has discovered them
and got them put upon an Advisory Council, they
■w ould be valuable advisers to any successor ?—
Quite so.
18056. As regards appeals, is it not the ordinary
procedure in civil and criminal jurisdiction not to
allow a second appeal on questions of fact ?—In civil
matters, unless the subject matter in dispute exceeds
a certain limit in value, the second appeal is confined
to questions of law ; in criminal matters there has
been some difference of -opinion, but there is no hard-
and-fast rule limiting such appeals to questions of
law ; questions of fact are gone into in criminal cases
on revision.
18057. Would you see any objection to applying the
same principle to administrative appeals and appeals
against matters connected with disciplinary action in
respect to public servants ?—I would rather not im-
pose those restrictions in regard to administrative
matters, because in administrative matters, to begin
with, there are no hard-and-fast rules. In judicial
matters there are hard-and-fast rules the operation of
which is salutary and some safeguard is given that all
the evidence will be gone into in the first instance,
whereas in administrative matters the same safeguard
might not exist ; therefore I would leave matters less
hampered by hard-and-fast rules in respect of admin-
istrative matters.
18058. Are you aware that in the case of Govern-
ment servants there is a standing rule that all charges
against them must be reduced to writing and shown to
them, and that they have full opportunity of calling
evidence ?—Yes.
18059. Are there not occasionally, as in every
nationality, designing persons who try to make friends
with Collectors and other European officers for their
own profit and ends ?—No doubt there are such men —
I cannot say there are not.
18060. Is it not possible that if a European officer
has found, especially when he is young in the Service,
that men of that sort have sought his acquaintance and
used it for bad ends, he keeps himself aloof in future
so as to prevent his confidence being abused again?—
Yes, that is quite within the range of possibility, but
here again there is one thing to be borne in mind,
namely, that there are so many points of diversity
between an Englishman and an Indian, that an
Englishman is liable to misunderstand an Indian, and
it may be that from misconception or misunderstand-
ing, an Englishman might set down an Indian as a bad
man when there was no reason for it.
18061. But may it not also be that an Indian occa-
sionally misunderstands an Englishman and puts down
to rudeness what the Englishman never intended as
such ?—Certainly.
18062. Is the existing system of education too uni-
form ? - It is too uniform.
18063. Do you apply that to the University system
mainly ?—Yes.
18064. Would it be better, for instance, to allow
local bodies to work schools with less regard to the
cast-iron restrictions of a provincial Education Code ?
—I think it would have a salutary effect at least in
one direction. The education problem being a new
problem in this country, where education is imparted
mostly through the medium of a foreign language,
different lines of experiments may be tried with
advantage, the results determining which lines shall
be followed, and that some diversity would be very
desirable.
18065. Are you not at present engaged in a very
interesting experiment in education ?—Yes, we are.
18066. Is your object to start a curriculum of edu-
cation which is not quite in accordance with the
general line pursued by the University ?—Yes.
18067. Would j ou like to see more freedom gene-
rally for people to develop education on their own
lines ?—Yes.
18068. Would it be necessary still to have the
results tested by Government officers ?—-I would stop
at testing—it would not be by Government officers,
but by trustworthy examiners.
18069. As regards panchayats you say you would be
inclined, if they were carefully selected, to give
them the decision of petty civil and criminal cases ;
would you make their decisions final ?—-No, except in
very petty cases where the interests at stake have no
lasting value.
18070. In a small dispute with regard to movable
property worth a few rupees for instance, or in any
petty case of assault would you have finality ?—Yes.
18071. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) I suppose the pro-
perty at issue in matters of administrative appeal is
sometimes of very great importance to one or the
other of the litigants ?—Yes.
18072. Supposing there is a great difference in the
wealth of two litigants would not the multiplicity of
appeals be a source of great danger to the poor man ?
—It would be a source of great trouble to him, but
I cannot see that it is a source of danger, because the
Appeal Court if it reverses the decision of the First
Court will do so only where there are good and valid
reasons clearly made out, so that, so far as the stability
of a just decision goes, an appeal is not fraught with
danger. Of course so far as the costs and harassment
go there may be that difficulty in the way of appeals
being allowed, but the question must always be con-
sidered from a relative and not from an absolute point
of view ; relatively the proportion of good that results
from allowing these appeals would outweigh any
possible hardship.
18073. Do you think that if a litigant has won in
the first two Courts he should be carried on from
Court to Court ?—Yes, in civil cases that is so at the
present day, and after all the result in the end is not
very harmful.
18074. On a civil appeal you cannot go into the
whole facts of a case, but only into the law. Is it not
different on the administrative side ?—Unless a good
point is made out the appellate authority will only
look to the regularity of the procedure and things of
that sort and accept the decision, if it is a concurrent
one, of two Lower Courts as binding upon it.
(The witness withdrew.)
The Hon. Babu Bhupendranath Basu was called and examined.
Bahn
Bhupendra-
nath Basu.
28 Jan., 1908.
18075. (Chairman.) Where do you reside ?—My
residence is generally in Calcutta, but I am a resident
of the district of Hooghly in Bengal. I have been a
solicitor of the High Court for the last 25 years and
also a vakil of that Court ; I have been a Fellow of
the Calcutta University for a great number of years
and have twice represented the University in the
Council ; I am a member of the Indian Association,
and of the Bengal Land Holders and the British India
Associations.
Within the limits of its budget, where the expendi-
ture may be met out of revenue and where such