156
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE!.
Babu
BTiupendra-
nath Basu,
28 Jan., 1908.
not view any conflict arising between the majority of
the members of the Council and the Commissioner
with any serious degree of apprehension. If it did
arise, I should think that the opinion of the majority
should be respected, because it would be the opinion
of the popular element represented by Hindus and
Muhammadans. If it so happened that in any small
local matter all these elements combined came to a
different conclusion from that of the Commissioner, I
do not think that the prestige or the position of the
Commissioner- would be in any way affected by an
adverse vote of the majority ; but to guard against
that, I am prepared to suggest that in such a matter
a reference might be made to the Local Government,
and that the Local Government should be allowed to
decide, just as happens in a case where the District
Judge disagrees with the Jury and refers the matter
to the High Court which decides.
18165. You have spoken merely of local matters,
but let us take a matter which conflicts with the
general policy of the Government—what would happen
then?—Just now it does not strike me that there is
any such matter which would arise in a district or
division, but even if it did arise, if an ultimate appeal
is provided for to the Local Government that would
be sufficient.
18166. Would it not turn the Collector from a
single individual into a corporation with limited
liability ?—Not at all, because it would apply only in
matters affecting the people themselves ; for instance,
supposing there is a liquor shop proposed to be opened
in a particular area, and the Commissioner’s Advisory
Council said that it was not proper to put it there,
probably the Collector, who is more interested in the
development of the revenue than in the improvement
of the morals of the people, would wish to have it. I
do not think that would be a catastrophe which need
be looked upon with any amount of apprehension,
and if it were, the final decision of the Local Govern-
ment would be quite conclusive.
18167. Does the Calcutta University start curricula
on various subjects which influence nearly all the
colleges and schools in the province?—Yes.
18168- Is that a good thing on the whole, or would
you like to see a little less uniformity and the educa-
tion developed by the people more according to their
own ideas ?—Taking each province by itself and not
India as a whole, I think a certain degree of uniformity
is desirable, but it has been recognised both by the
Government as well as by the people that the educa-
tion so far imparted by the Calcutta University has
not been all that was necessary or desirable. With
the awakening of the Government to that fact, we
think that the development of an educational policy
for a province may be left to the control of the
University of that province. The University entirely
controls the literary and scientific education of the
people ; it has nothing to do with primary education,
or with technical education—that is in the hands of a
special department of the Government.
18169. Is that department too uniform ?—For
instance, primary education is, and the middle schools
are, largely in the hands, or are supposed to be in the
hands, of District Boards and municipalities. At the
same time are these bodies not bound to manage them
according to the rules and instructions of the provincial
Educational Code ?—Yes.
18170. Is that a good thing, or should local bodies
have larger discretion, so that they might run schools
as they think proper ?—I think it would be desirable
to invest local bodies with larger powers of discrimina-
tion as to the methods to be pursued with regard to
primary education and the local needs of the people.
18171. If one local body, for instance, thought that
agriculture was a better subject to be taught in
primary schools than history, should they be allowed
to do it ?—Yes, or weaving. There are districts where
there is a large weaving industry ; there are districts
where there is a large agricultural industry ; there are
districts where there are a large number of braziers,
potters, and so on, and some latitude ought to be
given to the District Board in the way of being able
to level up the materials available.
18172. As regards secondary schools, which are
generally managed direct by Government, some
witnesses have suggested that the Collector should be
given a larger say in their management ; does that
meet your view, or would you leave it to the Education
Department ?—I should leave the schools under the
control of the Education Department because there
you have a department of experience and knowledge,
whereas the Collector in the first place has too little
time, and in the second place less knowledge with
regard to educational requirements.
18173. If you had Advisory Councils, would you
put the educational policy under them, or give them a
voice in the matter ?—I would give them a voice.
18174. (IL-. Hichens.') Speaking of the power of
the Commissioner to interfere unduly with a munici-
pality, in practice does he frequently interfere in
regard to details?—Yes, it is the great complaint that
minor matters are too much interfered with ; for
instance, if a peon’s salary is increased, an explanation
is asked for, or if a man dies while in the discharge of
his duty and a compassionate allowance is given to his
widow, there is interference and check.
18175. Would you increase the power of a munici-
pality with regard to raising salaries and giving
gratuities ?—I would limit the control and supervision
of the Collector or Commissioner to the budget heads ;
let them make an allotment for a specific purpose,
but as regards details, I would leave them entirely to
the municipality.
18176. Would you allow the municipality to give
any salaries it liked for any post ?—I would allow
them to give any salary, or make any expenditure for
any particular object. Supposing Rs. 10,000 is allotted
for road-making, it does not matter how much of that
sum is spent on one road and how much on another ;
or if a sum is allotted for salaries, it ought to be no
concern of the Collector that one rupee is given here
or one rupee deducted there—all those matters ought
to be left to the municipality.
18177. Would you give a municipality full power,
say, to increase the salary of its Secretary as it liked ?
—There are two classes of municipalities, small and
large. With regard to smaller municipalities it might
be desirable that in the case of a man drawing a
salary of a certain amount an increase should be
subject to the sanction of the Collector or the Com-
missioner, as the case might be. In the case of a man
drawing a salary of Rs. 200 a month, sanction might
be desirable, but with regard to smaller amounts, I do
not think it is necessary. With regard to bigger
municipalities I do not think even that amount of
control is required.
18178. Then in the case of larger municipalities
would you say that there is no necessity for any
control by the Commissioner in respect to a matter
like salaries ?—Yes, because in larger municipalities
there is less chance of cliques being formed.
18179. Would you allow a municipality also to
lower a Secretary’s salary ?—Yes ; why not ?
18180. And to dismiss him ?—Yes.
18181. Without an appeal?—There might be an
appeal, but the power to dismiss him might be given.
18182. To whom would you allow him to appeal ?—
It must be to the Commissioner because the Local
Government would be too far removed and too much
burdened to deal with details like that.
18183. That is to say, you think a municipality
would be entirely impartial in regard to increasing a
man’s salary, but that they might not be entirely
impartial in regard to dismissing him ?—In the case of
larger municipalities I would not advocate any inter-
ference by the Commissioner in the internal work,
but in the case of smaller municipalities some control
is desirable for some time to come, and I would
provide for an appeal in the event suggested by you,
but not in the case of bigger municipalities.
18184. In the case of bigger municipalities would
you allow an important official no appeal beyond the
Council ?—Yes.
18185. In the case of a municipality are you prepared
to agree that there should be no appeal at all, but in
the case of the Government you want a substantial
number of appeals ?—Yes, for the reason that in the
case of a municipality you have a large body of men
to deal with, while in the case of Government it has
happened in my experience that an officer incurring
the displeasure of a single official has been dismissed
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE!.
Babu
BTiupendra-
nath Basu,
28 Jan., 1908.
not view any conflict arising between the majority of
the members of the Council and the Commissioner
with any serious degree of apprehension. If it did
arise, I should think that the opinion of the majority
should be respected, because it would be the opinion
of the popular element represented by Hindus and
Muhammadans. If it so happened that in any small
local matter all these elements combined came to a
different conclusion from that of the Commissioner, I
do not think that the prestige or the position of the
Commissioner- would be in any way affected by an
adverse vote of the majority ; but to guard against
that, I am prepared to suggest that in such a matter
a reference might be made to the Local Government,
and that the Local Government should be allowed to
decide, just as happens in a case where the District
Judge disagrees with the Jury and refers the matter
to the High Court which decides.
18165. You have spoken merely of local matters,
but let us take a matter which conflicts with the
general policy of the Government—what would happen
then?—Just now it does not strike me that there is
any such matter which would arise in a district or
division, but even if it did arise, if an ultimate appeal
is provided for to the Local Government that would
be sufficient.
18166. Would it not turn the Collector from a
single individual into a corporation with limited
liability ?—Not at all, because it would apply only in
matters affecting the people themselves ; for instance,
supposing there is a liquor shop proposed to be opened
in a particular area, and the Commissioner’s Advisory
Council said that it was not proper to put it there,
probably the Collector, who is more interested in the
development of the revenue than in the improvement
of the morals of the people, would wish to have it. I
do not think that would be a catastrophe which need
be looked upon with any amount of apprehension,
and if it were, the final decision of the Local Govern-
ment would be quite conclusive.
18167. Does the Calcutta University start curricula
on various subjects which influence nearly all the
colleges and schools in the province?—Yes.
18168- Is that a good thing on the whole, or would
you like to see a little less uniformity and the educa-
tion developed by the people more according to their
own ideas ?—Taking each province by itself and not
India as a whole, I think a certain degree of uniformity
is desirable, but it has been recognised both by the
Government as well as by the people that the educa-
tion so far imparted by the Calcutta University has
not been all that was necessary or desirable. With
the awakening of the Government to that fact, we
think that the development of an educational policy
for a province may be left to the control of the
University of that province. The University entirely
controls the literary and scientific education of the
people ; it has nothing to do with primary education,
or with technical education—that is in the hands of a
special department of the Government.
18169. Is that department too uniform ?—For
instance, primary education is, and the middle schools
are, largely in the hands, or are supposed to be in the
hands, of District Boards and municipalities. At the
same time are these bodies not bound to manage them
according to the rules and instructions of the provincial
Educational Code ?—Yes.
18170. Is that a good thing, or should local bodies
have larger discretion, so that they might run schools
as they think proper ?—I think it would be desirable
to invest local bodies with larger powers of discrimina-
tion as to the methods to be pursued with regard to
primary education and the local needs of the people.
18171. If one local body, for instance, thought that
agriculture was a better subject to be taught in
primary schools than history, should they be allowed
to do it ?—Yes, or weaving. There are districts where
there is a large weaving industry ; there are districts
where there is a large agricultural industry ; there are
districts where there are a large number of braziers,
potters, and so on, and some latitude ought to be
given to the District Board in the way of being able
to level up the materials available.
18172. As regards secondary schools, which are
generally managed direct by Government, some
witnesses have suggested that the Collector should be
given a larger say in their management ; does that
meet your view, or would you leave it to the Education
Department ?—I should leave the schools under the
control of the Education Department because there
you have a department of experience and knowledge,
whereas the Collector in the first place has too little
time, and in the second place less knowledge with
regard to educational requirements.
18173. If you had Advisory Councils, would you
put the educational policy under them, or give them a
voice in the matter ?—I would give them a voice.
18174. (IL-. Hichens.') Speaking of the power of
the Commissioner to interfere unduly with a munici-
pality, in practice does he frequently interfere in
regard to details?—Yes, it is the great complaint that
minor matters are too much interfered with ; for
instance, if a peon’s salary is increased, an explanation
is asked for, or if a man dies while in the discharge of
his duty and a compassionate allowance is given to his
widow, there is interference and check.
18175. Would you increase the power of a munici-
pality with regard to raising salaries and giving
gratuities ?—I would limit the control and supervision
of the Collector or Commissioner to the budget heads ;
let them make an allotment for a specific purpose,
but as regards details, I would leave them entirely to
the municipality.
18176. Would you allow the municipality to give
any salaries it liked for any post ?—I would allow
them to give any salary, or make any expenditure for
any particular object. Supposing Rs. 10,000 is allotted
for road-making, it does not matter how much of that
sum is spent on one road and how much on another ;
or if a sum is allotted for salaries, it ought to be no
concern of the Collector that one rupee is given here
or one rupee deducted there—all those matters ought
to be left to the municipality.
18177. Would you give a municipality full power,
say, to increase the salary of its Secretary as it liked ?
—There are two classes of municipalities, small and
large. With regard to smaller municipalities it might
be desirable that in the case of a man drawing a
salary of a certain amount an increase should be
subject to the sanction of the Collector or the Com-
missioner, as the case might be. In the case of a man
drawing a salary of Rs. 200 a month, sanction might
be desirable, but with regard to smaller amounts, I do
not think it is necessary. With regard to bigger
municipalities I do not think even that amount of
control is required.
18178. Then in the case of larger municipalities
would you say that there is no necessity for any
control by the Commissioner in respect to a matter
like salaries ?—Yes, because in larger municipalities
there is less chance of cliques being formed.
18179. Would you allow a municipality also to
lower a Secretary’s salary ?—Yes ; why not ?
18180. And to dismiss him ?—Yes.
18181. Without an appeal?—There might be an
appeal, but the power to dismiss him might be given.
18182. To whom would you allow him to appeal ?—
It must be to the Commissioner because the Local
Government would be too far removed and too much
burdened to deal with details like that.
18183. That is to say, you think a municipality
would be entirely impartial in regard to increasing a
man’s salary, but that they might not be entirely
impartial in regard to dismissing him ?—In the case of
larger municipalities I would not advocate any inter-
ference by the Commissioner in the internal work,
but in the case of smaller municipalities some control
is desirable for some time to come, and I would
provide for an appeal in the event suggested by you,
but not in the case of bigger municipalities.
18184. In the case of bigger municipalities would
you allow an important official no appeal beyond the
Council ?—Yes.
18185. In the case of a municipality are you prepared
to agree that there should be no appeal at all, but in
the case of the Government you want a substantial
number of appeals ?—Yes, for the reason that in the
case of a municipality you have a large body of men
to deal with, while in the case of Government it has
happened in my experience that an officer incurring
the displeasure of a single official has been dismissed