DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0165
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
159
18245. Are there not occasionally little local
disputes between different sections of the people-
different castes, or between Hindus and Muhamma-
dans ? Do you think that an Advisory Council
would be of any use to the Collector in trying to
settle those disputes ?—I think it would be of very
great use. On the occasion of the last Bakri-id
festival, some influential Hindus in Bengal issued a
notice saying that there should not be any interference
with the ceremonies that Muhammadans might
perform upon that occasion, and I have reliable
information that that notice had a great deal of effect,
and happily there were no Bakrid riots in Bengal, on
the last occasion.
18246. You mentioned something about the location
of liquor shops in the mufassal ; might the Col-
lector usefully consult the District Council in the
matter of the location of the liquor shops ?—Yes,
<at least the members coming from the particular
locality.
18247. Would their advice be of any value to the
Collector in that matter?—Yes. For instance, take
the Municipality of Calcutta; in many of these
matters the Commissioner of Police or the Chairman
of the Corporation consults the representatives of the
Wards concerned, and their opinion is always acted
upon. I have rarely known of a case in which their
opinion has not been acted upon. As regards the
location of a• jute godown, or of a mill or factory or
liquor shop, the opinion of the local representatives is
obtained in Calcutta and always acted upon. The
same system might be followed with advantage in
"the interior.
18248. A great deal is being done at present by the
Government to encourage local trades and industries.
Would the Advisory Council be able to help the
Collector in that matter ?—Yes, in making suggestions
to him as to what industries should be introduced or
fostered in a particular district and how it could be
done—what classes should be approached, and how
they should be educated.,
18249. Would you have the Collector consult the
Advisory Council only in these matters, or would you
have him invite other gentlemen to be present there
to give their opinions also when these questions arise ?
—If an Advisory Council is properly constituted I do
not think that other men should be invited, because
that would diminish the sense of responsibility of the
Advisory Council and that would not be desirable.
But for any particular measure, just as the Local
Government now consults the members of the
Local Council, but forms special committees to work
out the details of any particular measure which it has
in view, so the Collector may form individual
committees, but they should be outside the Advisory
Council ; the Collector may nominate to them
members of the Advisory Council.
18250. But the Collector would not be debarred
from taking other advice from any other quarters ?—
Not only would he not be debarred, but he should not
be debarred.
18251. Generally speaking, if the Collector consults
these members of the Council would his administration
be more in touch with the requirements of the
people?—Yes; it would bring the Collector into
closer touch with the people. It is a great gain, to
my mind, that the Collector should be looked up to
by the people as not apart from themselves. In the
next place, he would know the feelings of the people
and sentiments of the people in a much greater degree
than he does now, and through more trustworthy
• channels.
18252. Would you suggest that the Council should
be convened once a month, or periodically, or
whenever it is necessary to ask them to come?—I
think once a month ought to be the minimum.
18253. And they should meet when necessary?—
Yes, they should not be like some of the local
Councils which are seldom called together.
18254. Would you like to constitute small village
panchayats and give them more powers than they
exercise at present ?—I think so. In arranging local
disputes village panchayats would be a great help, and
they would be helpful in putting down the desire of
: some people to rush to law on the least provocation.
18255. At present we have chaukidari panchayats ?
—Yes ; they do not inspire any confidence.
18256. If you had to organize village panchayats,
would you take the chaukidari panchayats as your
basis ?—I would get a different class of men.
18257. Would you have a panchayat in every
village, or would you sometimes group villages
together?—I would group together villages to give
them sufficient importance and weight.
18258. Would you create these panchayats all over
the district where the conditions are favourable ?•—
Certainly.
18259. You think also that in that way the adminis-
tration might be improved and popularised ?—Yes.
18260. (Sir Frederic Lely.) I understand that you
, have not any practical acquaintance with the working
of District Boards?—No, except as a resident some-
times in the mufassal, otherwise not.
18261. The interesting evidence that you have given
us is the product of your own thought rather than
your own contact with the people ?—-It is the product
of my own contact with the people, not so much from
my experience of District Boards. The actual
workings of District Boards are brought home to us
by our surroundings.
18262. Your view pre-supposes that we get for these
Advisory Councils men of public spirit and determina-
tion ?—Yes.
18263. With reference to municipalities, you are
acquainted with one or two of rather a large size ?—
Yes, I am more familiar with them.
18264. You think that it is essential and necessary
that they should be able to borrow for special objects ?
—From the Local Government.
18265. Never mind from whom, but that they should
be able to raise money to discount future income for
important works ?—I am not in favour of mufassal
municipalities borrowing independently.
18266. But you are in favour of their anticipating
their future income with a view to carrying out large
works ?—In the case of big municipalities, yes.
18267. Would you go so far as to say that borrowing
was essential for progressive administration ?—Yes.
18268. At present a municipality is not ordinarily
allowed by the Government of India to borrow for a
longer period than 20 years ; might that period be
extended ?—The period would have to be extended to
provide for sufficient sinking fund and interest ; the
20 years is too short. I would not make it less than
30 years.
18269. Would you suggest that the period should be
to some extent adjusted according to the life of the
work that was to be executed ?—According to the life
and value of the work. For a small work costing a
small sum of money a long period would not be
necessary, but for a big undertaking, one which would
benefit future generations for a long time, it is desir-
able that the burden should be spread over a longer
period.
18270. In the case of a municipality would you have
the Chairman elected ?—Yes.
18271. Would you advocate that all the members of
. the municipality should be elected instead of a propor-
tion as now ?—I am to some extent conservative as to
that, and I think that two-thirds elected is not an
unfair proportion.
18272. You justified not allowing an appeal from
large municipalities on the ground that there are fewer
cliques in large municipalities ; is that really so ?—I
think so ; you have to get together a much larger
number of men to carry out a particular thing.
18273. Would not the practical result of that be
that there are more cliques ?—No. I have experience
of some large municipalities, including the Municipality
of Calcutta.
18274. You have used some rather strong words
about the British officer. May I ask whether you
speak from personal knowledge or is it only general ?
—Both from personal and general knowledge.
18275. Have you known yourself personally English-
men who. are intolerant of opposition, who invest
Balm
Bhupendra-
nath. Basu.
28 Jan., 1908.
159
18245. Are there not occasionally little local
disputes between different sections of the people-
different castes, or between Hindus and Muhamma-
dans ? Do you think that an Advisory Council
would be of any use to the Collector in trying to
settle those disputes ?—I think it would be of very
great use. On the occasion of the last Bakri-id
festival, some influential Hindus in Bengal issued a
notice saying that there should not be any interference
with the ceremonies that Muhammadans might
perform upon that occasion, and I have reliable
information that that notice had a great deal of effect,
and happily there were no Bakrid riots in Bengal, on
the last occasion.
18246. You mentioned something about the location
of liquor shops in the mufassal ; might the Col-
lector usefully consult the District Council in the
matter of the location of the liquor shops ?—Yes,
<at least the members coming from the particular
locality.
18247. Would their advice be of any value to the
Collector in that matter?—Yes. For instance, take
the Municipality of Calcutta; in many of these
matters the Commissioner of Police or the Chairman
of the Corporation consults the representatives of the
Wards concerned, and their opinion is always acted
upon. I have rarely known of a case in which their
opinion has not been acted upon. As regards the
location of a• jute godown, or of a mill or factory or
liquor shop, the opinion of the local representatives is
obtained in Calcutta and always acted upon. The
same system might be followed with advantage in
"the interior.
18248. A great deal is being done at present by the
Government to encourage local trades and industries.
Would the Advisory Council be able to help the
Collector in that matter ?—Yes, in making suggestions
to him as to what industries should be introduced or
fostered in a particular district and how it could be
done—what classes should be approached, and how
they should be educated.,
18249. Would you have the Collector consult the
Advisory Council only in these matters, or would you
have him invite other gentlemen to be present there
to give their opinions also when these questions arise ?
—If an Advisory Council is properly constituted I do
not think that other men should be invited, because
that would diminish the sense of responsibility of the
Advisory Council and that would not be desirable.
But for any particular measure, just as the Local
Government now consults the members of the
Local Council, but forms special committees to work
out the details of any particular measure which it has
in view, so the Collector may form individual
committees, but they should be outside the Advisory
Council ; the Collector may nominate to them
members of the Advisory Council.
18250. But the Collector would not be debarred
from taking other advice from any other quarters ?—
Not only would he not be debarred, but he should not
be debarred.
18251. Generally speaking, if the Collector consults
these members of the Council would his administration
be more in touch with the requirements of the
people?—Yes; it would bring the Collector into
closer touch with the people. It is a great gain, to
my mind, that the Collector should be looked up to
by the people as not apart from themselves. In the
next place, he would know the feelings of the people
and sentiments of the people in a much greater degree
than he does now, and through more trustworthy
• channels.
18252. Would you suggest that the Council should
be convened once a month, or periodically, or
whenever it is necessary to ask them to come?—I
think once a month ought to be the minimum.
18253. And they should meet when necessary?—
Yes, they should not be like some of the local
Councils which are seldom called together.
18254. Would you like to constitute small village
panchayats and give them more powers than they
exercise at present ?—I think so. In arranging local
disputes village panchayats would be a great help, and
they would be helpful in putting down the desire of
: some people to rush to law on the least provocation.
18255. At present we have chaukidari panchayats ?
—Yes ; they do not inspire any confidence.
18256. If you had to organize village panchayats,
would you take the chaukidari panchayats as your
basis ?—I would get a different class of men.
18257. Would you have a panchayat in every
village, or would you sometimes group villages
together?—I would group together villages to give
them sufficient importance and weight.
18258. Would you create these panchayats all over
the district where the conditions are favourable ?•—
Certainly.
18259. You think also that in that way the adminis-
tration might be improved and popularised ?—Yes.
18260. (Sir Frederic Lely.) I understand that you
, have not any practical acquaintance with the working
of District Boards?—No, except as a resident some-
times in the mufassal, otherwise not.
18261. The interesting evidence that you have given
us is the product of your own thought rather than
your own contact with the people ?—-It is the product
of my own contact with the people, not so much from
my experience of District Boards. The actual
workings of District Boards are brought home to us
by our surroundings.
18262. Your view pre-supposes that we get for these
Advisory Councils men of public spirit and determina-
tion ?—Yes.
18263. With reference to municipalities, you are
acquainted with one or two of rather a large size ?—
Yes, I am more familiar with them.
18264. You think that it is essential and necessary
that they should be able to borrow for special objects ?
—From the Local Government.
18265. Never mind from whom, but that they should
be able to raise money to discount future income for
important works ?—I am not in favour of mufassal
municipalities borrowing independently.
18266. But you are in favour of their anticipating
their future income with a view to carrying out large
works ?—In the case of big municipalities, yes.
18267. Would you go so far as to say that borrowing
was essential for progressive administration ?—Yes.
18268. At present a municipality is not ordinarily
allowed by the Government of India to borrow for a
longer period than 20 years ; might that period be
extended ?—The period would have to be extended to
provide for sufficient sinking fund and interest ; the
20 years is too short. I would not make it less than
30 years.
18269. Would you suggest that the period should be
to some extent adjusted according to the life of the
work that was to be executed ?—According to the life
and value of the work. For a small work costing a
small sum of money a long period would not be
necessary, but for a big undertaking, one which would
benefit future generations for a long time, it is desir-
able that the burden should be spread over a longer
period.
18270. In the case of a municipality would you have
the Chairman elected ?—Yes.
18271. Would you advocate that all the members of
. the municipality should be elected instead of a propor-
tion as now ?—I am to some extent conservative as to
that, and I think that two-thirds elected is not an
unfair proportion.
18272. You justified not allowing an appeal from
large municipalities on the ground that there are fewer
cliques in large municipalities ; is that really so ?—I
think so ; you have to get together a much larger
number of men to carry out a particular thing.
18273. Would not the practical result of that be
that there are more cliques ?—No. I have experience
of some large municipalities, including the Municipality
of Calcutta.
18274. You have used some rather strong words
about the British officer. May I ask whether you
speak from personal knowledge or is it only general ?
—Both from personal and general knowledge.
18275. Have you known yourself personally English-
men who. are intolerant of opposition, who invest
Balm
Bhupendra-
nath. Basu.
28 Jan., 1908.