DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0168
Babu
Baihunta
Nath Sen.
28 Jan., 1908.
162 MINUTES OF evidence:
18299. Do you wish to see any extension of the
powers of a municipality ?—They have got sufficient
powers under the Act as it now stands, only some
powers are withheld by Government under the law
and are not extended to certain municipalities. The
Municipal Act comprises sufficient provisions for the
exercise of rights which would keep the municipality
in good order.
18300. And the same with regard to District Boards ?
—Yes.
18301. Do you work in the municipalities by com-
mittees ?—Yes. I think the system works well.
18302. Do you have committees on the District
Boards ?—No, the District Boards have no other com-
mittees ; there is simply the District Board.
18303. Would it be desirable to establish com-
mittees ?•—I think it would be.
18304. Do municipalities depend for their income
entirely on taxation ?—Yes ; in some municipalities it
is a tax on “ persons,” as they call it, and in some cases
it is a rate—that is, a valuation on buildings. There
is also the latrine tax, and where there are water-works
there is the water rate ; then there are certain other
sources of income. In the Berhampore municipality
they have a certain income from pounds and ferries.
18305. There is no contribution from the Govern-
ment?—Not as a rule, unless for special works.
18306. For Public Works, either under the District
Board or municipality, do you borrow from Govern-
ment?—Yes ; the Government does not charge a high
rate of interest.
18307. Is there any principle by which the Road
Cess is shared as between the Local Board and the
District Board ?—Unfortunately, no. It is desirable
to lay down some principle. The allotments made to
these Local Boards are generally poor, while they are
expected to keep up and maintain the village roads.
The agriculturists pay the tax ; they can only appre-
ciate its benefits if the roads are kept in good order
and if village communications are maintained, but
Unfortunately the District Boards made scanty allot-
ments to the Local Boards, and the actual agricul-
turists, the cess-payers, do not feel the benefit at all ;
that is a grave complaint.
18308. Would you suggest what a fail- division
should be ?—I think it should be half and half of the
Road Cess ; half to the District Board and half to the
Local Board.
18309. If members of District Boards and munici-
palities were gazetted by the Commissioner of the
division, instead of by Government, would that lead
them to think that their position was in any way
lowered ?—It would be a sentimental question, and I
think, in view of the feelings and views of my
countrymen, they would look upon it with disfavour.
18310. Do sanitary projects, which are contemplated
by municipalities or District Boards, go to the Sanitary
Board ?—Yes, they go to the Sanitary Board. The
people go to the District Board ; the matter passes
through some channel or other and then goes to the
Sanitary Board.
18311. Is that a satisfactory method of doing the
work ?—I do not consider- it satisfactory. In my dis-
trict there are two endowments by a liberal gentleman.
He has endowed Rs. 50,000 for the improvement of
the sanitation of the district,- and a lakh of rupees
for the supply of drinking water. I happen to be one
of the trustees of these two endowed funds. With
regard to sanitation, the improvements which have
been adopted have simply been cutting down jungle
to try and improve the drains and to kill the mos-
quitoes ; they have not proved successful as yet. From
that fund we tried in one village, but we failed, partly
owing to the apathy of the village people themselves.
We cleared the jungle and cleared the drains and did
everything ; we spent some thousands of rupees over
that, and wished them to keep the place clean hence-
forth, and they would not do it. So that with regard
to the improvement of sanitation, a good deal depends
upon the sympathy and co-operation of the villagers
themselves. We have not got village communities
now, but if we could substitute village panchayats,
composed of men of higher status and educational
attainments, much good could be done by them so far
as sanitation is concerned.
18312. Are the comments and criticisms of the
Sanitary Board generally justified ; do they generally
add to the value of the work ?—The expert ideas
sometimes differ from the people’s way of thinking,
and amongst my countrymen there are few who can
claim an expert knowledge perhaps of sanitation, so
I would not like to attach much importance to that.
18313. Is the work done pretty speedily ?—Some
work is taken up and some money is spent ; jungles
are cut and drains are kept clean, and so on, spasmodi-
cally as it were, not in a systematic way, and they do
not do much good.
18314. You would like to see panchayats established
where possible ? It would probably be necessary to
start experimentally ?— Yes. Instead of starting
wholesale throughout the province, it would be much
better to take up experimental and tentative measures
in some well-advanced districts.
18315. Would you give them a small jurisdiction in
petty civil and criminal cases ?—Yes.
18316. Probably you would be able to add to that
minor sanitation ? — Sanitation and education in
primary schools.
18317. With perhaps a simple water-supply ?—Yes.
18318. And would you suggest the distribution of
irrigation water ?—There is not much feeling in Bengal
about the distribution of irrigation water, but in Bihar
there is a considerable feeling, and it would do much
good in the Bihar districts. I have known of several
cases where from a single dispute as to taking water
from one field to another there have been lots of
riots and murders.
18319. Would those be probably less frequent if
they were settled by a panchayat ?—I am inclined to
think so.
18320. Would you add the management of any com-
munal or- forest lands that might adjoin the village ?
—That would be too big a subject.
18321. When you start experimentally with these
panchayats. would you start them in single villages ?
—No, I should start them in groups of villages ; you
could not start them in a single village. I would take
a population of about 10,000 ; that is, if one village
is to be taken ; if a group is to be taken, perhaps two
or three thousand m each village—three or fqjn-
villages of two or three thousand each.
18322. With regard to the conduct of Executive
Officers towards the people, you tell us that there is a
want of courteous treatment often ; is that from your
own personal knowledge ?—Speaking for myself, I
should say, perhaps, that I have been always very
courteously treated, but I cannot say the same with
regard to others.
18323. When you have heard complaints of dis-
courtesy have you ever taken the trouble to personally
investigate them or have you simply accepted the
statement ?—I have accepted the statement of the
gentleman who came into contact with the authori-
ties.
18324. Is it possible to draw together the officials
and population of the districts in any way ?—There
might be a sort of meeting occasionally. It is very
difficult to lay down any rule for that ; it depends a
great deal upon the temper and nature of the indi-
viduals in authority. There might be a gathering in
some shape or other and an exchange of thoughts ;
perhaps that would bring into existence a sort of
touch which might be desirable.
18325. Is there a desire on the part of both parties
to come together ?—I think there is.
18326. Therefore it is perhaps only want of con-
sideration—perhaps on both sides—that prevents it ?
—I think on both sides, yes.
18327. Perhaps some sort of racial pride on one
side, and some amount of diffidence, which to a certain
extent is equally pride, on the other ?—Yes, diffidence
on one side, and I might almost say arrogance on the
other.
18328. Is this arrogance, where it exists, due to the
fact that the man is an office-holder ?—Yes.
18329. So that it may affect both Europeans and
Indians ?—Yes.
18330. (Mr. Hichens.') You suggest that the
Lieutenant-Governor should be replaced by a Governor
Baihunta
Nath Sen.
28 Jan., 1908.
162 MINUTES OF evidence:
18299. Do you wish to see any extension of the
powers of a municipality ?—They have got sufficient
powers under the Act as it now stands, only some
powers are withheld by Government under the law
and are not extended to certain municipalities. The
Municipal Act comprises sufficient provisions for the
exercise of rights which would keep the municipality
in good order.
18300. And the same with regard to District Boards ?
—Yes.
18301. Do you work in the municipalities by com-
mittees ?—Yes. I think the system works well.
18302. Do you have committees on the District
Boards ?—No, the District Boards have no other com-
mittees ; there is simply the District Board.
18303. Would it be desirable to establish com-
mittees ?•—I think it would be.
18304. Do municipalities depend for their income
entirely on taxation ?—Yes ; in some municipalities it
is a tax on “ persons,” as they call it, and in some cases
it is a rate—that is, a valuation on buildings. There
is also the latrine tax, and where there are water-works
there is the water rate ; then there are certain other
sources of income. In the Berhampore municipality
they have a certain income from pounds and ferries.
18305. There is no contribution from the Govern-
ment?—Not as a rule, unless for special works.
18306. For Public Works, either under the District
Board or municipality, do you borrow from Govern-
ment?—Yes ; the Government does not charge a high
rate of interest.
18307. Is there any principle by which the Road
Cess is shared as between the Local Board and the
District Board ?—Unfortunately, no. It is desirable
to lay down some principle. The allotments made to
these Local Boards are generally poor, while they are
expected to keep up and maintain the village roads.
The agriculturists pay the tax ; they can only appre-
ciate its benefits if the roads are kept in good order
and if village communications are maintained, but
Unfortunately the District Boards made scanty allot-
ments to the Local Boards, and the actual agricul-
turists, the cess-payers, do not feel the benefit at all ;
that is a grave complaint.
18308. Would you suggest what a fail- division
should be ?—I think it should be half and half of the
Road Cess ; half to the District Board and half to the
Local Board.
18309. If members of District Boards and munici-
palities were gazetted by the Commissioner of the
division, instead of by Government, would that lead
them to think that their position was in any way
lowered ?—It would be a sentimental question, and I
think, in view of the feelings and views of my
countrymen, they would look upon it with disfavour.
18310. Do sanitary projects, which are contemplated
by municipalities or District Boards, go to the Sanitary
Board ?—Yes, they go to the Sanitary Board. The
people go to the District Board ; the matter passes
through some channel or other and then goes to the
Sanitary Board.
18311. Is that a satisfactory method of doing the
work ?—I do not consider- it satisfactory. In my dis-
trict there are two endowments by a liberal gentleman.
He has endowed Rs. 50,000 for the improvement of
the sanitation of the district,- and a lakh of rupees
for the supply of drinking water. I happen to be one
of the trustees of these two endowed funds. With
regard to sanitation, the improvements which have
been adopted have simply been cutting down jungle
to try and improve the drains and to kill the mos-
quitoes ; they have not proved successful as yet. From
that fund we tried in one village, but we failed, partly
owing to the apathy of the village people themselves.
We cleared the jungle and cleared the drains and did
everything ; we spent some thousands of rupees over
that, and wished them to keep the place clean hence-
forth, and they would not do it. So that with regard
to the improvement of sanitation, a good deal depends
upon the sympathy and co-operation of the villagers
themselves. We have not got village communities
now, but if we could substitute village panchayats,
composed of men of higher status and educational
attainments, much good could be done by them so far
as sanitation is concerned.
18312. Are the comments and criticisms of the
Sanitary Board generally justified ; do they generally
add to the value of the work ?—The expert ideas
sometimes differ from the people’s way of thinking,
and amongst my countrymen there are few who can
claim an expert knowledge perhaps of sanitation, so
I would not like to attach much importance to that.
18313. Is the work done pretty speedily ?—Some
work is taken up and some money is spent ; jungles
are cut and drains are kept clean, and so on, spasmodi-
cally as it were, not in a systematic way, and they do
not do much good.
18314. You would like to see panchayats established
where possible ? It would probably be necessary to
start experimentally ?— Yes. Instead of starting
wholesale throughout the province, it would be much
better to take up experimental and tentative measures
in some well-advanced districts.
18315. Would you give them a small jurisdiction in
petty civil and criminal cases ?—Yes.
18316. Probably you would be able to add to that
minor sanitation ? — Sanitation and education in
primary schools.
18317. With perhaps a simple water-supply ?—Yes.
18318. And would you suggest the distribution of
irrigation water ?—There is not much feeling in Bengal
about the distribution of irrigation water, but in Bihar
there is a considerable feeling, and it would do much
good in the Bihar districts. I have known of several
cases where from a single dispute as to taking water
from one field to another there have been lots of
riots and murders.
18319. Would those be probably less frequent if
they were settled by a panchayat ?—I am inclined to
think so.
18320. Would you add the management of any com-
munal or- forest lands that might adjoin the village ?
—That would be too big a subject.
18321. When you start experimentally with these
panchayats. would you start them in single villages ?
—No, I should start them in groups of villages ; you
could not start them in a single village. I would take
a population of about 10,000 ; that is, if one village
is to be taken ; if a group is to be taken, perhaps two
or three thousand m each village—three or fqjn-
villages of two or three thousand each.
18322. With regard to the conduct of Executive
Officers towards the people, you tell us that there is a
want of courteous treatment often ; is that from your
own personal knowledge ?—Speaking for myself, I
should say, perhaps, that I have been always very
courteously treated, but I cannot say the same with
regard to others.
18323. When you have heard complaints of dis-
courtesy have you ever taken the trouble to personally
investigate them or have you simply accepted the
statement ?—I have accepted the statement of the
gentleman who came into contact with the authori-
ties.
18324. Is it possible to draw together the officials
and population of the districts in any way ?—There
might be a sort of meeting occasionally. It is very
difficult to lay down any rule for that ; it depends a
great deal upon the temper and nature of the indi-
viduals in authority. There might be a gathering in
some shape or other and an exchange of thoughts ;
perhaps that would bring into existence a sort of
touch which might be desirable.
18325. Is there a desire on the part of both parties
to come together ?—I think there is.
18326. Therefore it is perhaps only want of con-
sideration—perhaps on both sides—that prevents it ?
—I think on both sides, yes.
18327. Perhaps some sort of racial pride on one
side, and some amount of diffidence, which to a certain
extent is equally pride, on the other ?—Yes, diffidence
on one side, and I might almost say arrogance on the
other.
18328. Is this arrogance, where it exists, due to the
fact that the man is an office-holder ?—Yes.
18329. So that it may affect both Europeans and
Indians ?—Yes.
18330. (Mr. Hichens.') You suggest that the
Lieutenant-Governor should be replaced by a Governor