DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0186
180
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
The Hon.
Mr. F. A.
Slaoke.
29 Jan., 1908.
The Hon.
Mr. William
Charles
Macpherson.
29 Jan., 1908.
18793. Have you seen the memorandum of evidence
that they have put before the Commission ?—-Yes.
18794. Do you personally agree with that?—Yes, it
was discussed at a meeting of the Commissioners.
18795. For instance, as to the inclusion of a recom-
mendation in favour of the transfer of the Pilot
Service to the Port Commissioners ?—I think there is
something in it.
18796. (Chairman.) Is a considerable amount of
time spent between the arrival of a question, say,
before the Board of Revenue and its final settlement ?
—Sometimes ; one always tries to get a question
settled as quickly as possible.
18797. You said as regards conferences of Com-
missioners, that projects could be quite easily put off
for a few months ?—-Not ordinary projects, but big
projects which would involve the whole province and
which could not be decided in a short time. Probably,
if you started correspondence now between each divi-
sion you would not get the results arrived at in those
particular areas before the time came for the con-
ference.
18798. You told us the delegation could be put off-
that in the course of years it might be possible to
have a greater amount of delegation ; may I take it
that time is no object in the Secretariat of Bengal in
regard to the Court of Wards for instance ?—I am
trying to improve it ; it is a question of time to raise
the officers up to their proper standard ; that must
require time. As soon as they are efficient the work
will be lessened and my office will be decreased to a
certain extent ; I cannot decrease my office now ; the
moment I have worked them up to the proper standard
they will have the full powers and I shall not check
these budgets.
18799. I am not to take it from your evidence that
time is of no consequence ?—No, I am sorry if I con-
veyed that impression ; I did not mean to do so at all.
(The witness withdrew.)
The Hon’ble Mr. William Charles Macpherson, C.S.I., was called and examined.
18800. (Chairman.) You are a member of the Board
of Revenue in Bengal and have more particularly to
deal with Customs, Excise, Income-tax, Opium, etc. ?
—Yes.
The financial powers of the Lieutenant-Governor of
Bengal are, generally speaking, sufficient, but they may
properly be enlarged so as to give the Lieutenant-
Governor power to relax rates and a wider discretion
under the heads specified in the list recently submitted
by the Bengal Government, and specially in the matter
of establishments (permanent and temporary), local,
personal and travelling allowances, expenditure on
residences of officers, and petty charges.
Generally speaking, the administrative powers exer-
cised by the Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal are
sufficiently wide. In the statutory control of revenue
administration it is the exception for the Government
of India to be the ultimate authority in this province.
Ordinarily the Local Government, or the Board of
Revenue, has final statutory control. In revenue ad-
ministration less fettered control of survey and settle-
ment work, more power in the alienation of land and
land revenue, complete authority with regard to re-
funds, and more power with regard to appointments,
should be conceded. So far, then, as regards dele-
gation of statutory powers exercised by the Govern-
ment of India in Bengal, there is no great need for a
general Act of delegation such as Act V of 1868 : and
there would be obvious advantages in specific amend-
ing legislation, or at least in a full citation of Acts
and sections and powers delegated. But a delegating
Act, with safeguards, is required to permit of full and
reasonable delegation of powers by the Local Govern-
ment to inferior authorities.
There is no doubt at times a tendency in the
departments of the Government of India towards
excessive rigidity and uniformity. Much depends on
personal idiosyncrasies and experience. In times past
the Revenue and Agricultural Department of the
Government of India has had insufficient knowledge
of conditions in Bengal, and on a supposed analogy
of other provinces, has pressed economies in the
survey and record writing which, if accepted, would
have seriously impaired the accuracy and value of the
records. The Home Department is not always
sympathetic in handling proposals regarding education.
As a measure of reform it is suggested that a
Lieutenant-Governor of a province should not be
finally over-ruled, in matters great or small, unless
with the concurrence of His Excellency the Viceroy,
and in important matters not until after discussion in
Council. It is also suggested that orders of the
Government of India disallowing a Lieutenant-Gover-
nor’s proposals should more often take the form of
suggestions, or at least be passed after giving oppor-
tunity to show further cause or after discussion
unofficial or otherwise.
Except occasionally in matters of expenditure, there
is not a tendency in the Imperial Secretariat to con-
sider matters too much from a purely departmental
standpoint ; nor can I remember cases, unless one or
two only throughout my service, in which I have
thought that the Government of India was unduly
dominated by considerations of revenue.
The proper sphere of work for Directors and
Inspectors-General under the Government of India
dealing with departments which are primarily adminis-
tered by Local Governments is to inspect and to
advise. The instructions issued at the time of the
appointment of the Inspector-General of Agriculture,
Director-General of Education and Inspector-General
of Excise and Salt were very suitable. It would be
better to call such officers “ Inspectors-General” rather
than (as in the case of Education at present)
11 Director-General.” Care should be taken not to
dictate to, or overrule, a Local Government on the
strength of advice given by an Inspector-General, until
the Local Government has been fully heard.
The initiative in administrative reforms relating to
the land in this province, excepting the Department
of Agriculture, has come chiefly or entirely from the
Provincial Government and its officers. So also with
regard to municipal and local self-government. In
reforms carried out under the head of police, criminal
and civil justice, excise, emigration, sanitation, educa-
tion and agriculture, the initiative has been divided.
The Commissions, which have done so much to clear
the ground for, and introduce, reforms, have been
appointed, as is believed, to deal with defects pointed
out and proposals made for the most part by the
various Local Governments. Proposals for reforms
submitted by the Bengal Government have often been
improved by the Government of India ; but remedial
measures have also been seriously delayed by discus-
sions between the two Governments. As instances of
such delays may be cited the discussions which pre-
ceded the reorganization of the police, the discussions
of the pending Bengal Local Government and Muni-
cipal Bills, the Calcutta Improvement Trust and the
proposals for increasing the cadre of Deputy Magis-
trates and Deputy Collectors.
The right of appeal now granted in this province in
respect to administrative action is not excessive, nor
are such appeals numerous. I should be opposed to
laying down that no such appeal should be admitted
unless accompanied by a certificate from the Local
Government that reasonable grounds of appeal exist.
I would not curtail the right of appeal now granted to
officers of Government against orders affecting them
personally.
I am generally in favour of an extension of the
powers of the Board of Revenue, Commissioners of
divisions and District Officers in matters relating to
revenue, general administration and Court of Wards.
This subject has received much attention in Bengal in
recent years.
The influence of the Bengal Government is not in
the direction of excessive rigidity or uniformity, nor
is the ordinary tendency of the Provincial Secretariat
to regard matters too much from a purely depart-
mental standard. The Bengal Government has never
before been in so close touch as at present with its
officers and with those leaders of the people who have
a right to be consulted. This result has been obtained
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
The Hon.
Mr. F. A.
Slaoke.
29 Jan., 1908.
The Hon.
Mr. William
Charles
Macpherson.
29 Jan., 1908.
18793. Have you seen the memorandum of evidence
that they have put before the Commission ?—-Yes.
18794. Do you personally agree with that?—Yes, it
was discussed at a meeting of the Commissioners.
18795. For instance, as to the inclusion of a recom-
mendation in favour of the transfer of the Pilot
Service to the Port Commissioners ?—I think there is
something in it.
18796. (Chairman.) Is a considerable amount of
time spent between the arrival of a question, say,
before the Board of Revenue and its final settlement ?
—Sometimes ; one always tries to get a question
settled as quickly as possible.
18797. You said as regards conferences of Com-
missioners, that projects could be quite easily put off
for a few months ?—-Not ordinary projects, but big
projects which would involve the whole province and
which could not be decided in a short time. Probably,
if you started correspondence now between each divi-
sion you would not get the results arrived at in those
particular areas before the time came for the con-
ference.
18798. You told us the delegation could be put off-
that in the course of years it might be possible to
have a greater amount of delegation ; may I take it
that time is no object in the Secretariat of Bengal in
regard to the Court of Wards for instance ?—I am
trying to improve it ; it is a question of time to raise
the officers up to their proper standard ; that must
require time. As soon as they are efficient the work
will be lessened and my office will be decreased to a
certain extent ; I cannot decrease my office now ; the
moment I have worked them up to the proper standard
they will have the full powers and I shall not check
these budgets.
18799. I am not to take it from your evidence that
time is of no consequence ?—No, I am sorry if I con-
veyed that impression ; I did not mean to do so at all.
(The witness withdrew.)
The Hon’ble Mr. William Charles Macpherson, C.S.I., was called and examined.
18800. (Chairman.) You are a member of the Board
of Revenue in Bengal and have more particularly to
deal with Customs, Excise, Income-tax, Opium, etc. ?
—Yes.
The financial powers of the Lieutenant-Governor of
Bengal are, generally speaking, sufficient, but they may
properly be enlarged so as to give the Lieutenant-
Governor power to relax rates and a wider discretion
under the heads specified in the list recently submitted
by the Bengal Government, and specially in the matter
of establishments (permanent and temporary), local,
personal and travelling allowances, expenditure on
residences of officers, and petty charges.
Generally speaking, the administrative powers exer-
cised by the Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal are
sufficiently wide. In the statutory control of revenue
administration it is the exception for the Government
of India to be the ultimate authority in this province.
Ordinarily the Local Government, or the Board of
Revenue, has final statutory control. In revenue ad-
ministration less fettered control of survey and settle-
ment work, more power in the alienation of land and
land revenue, complete authority with regard to re-
funds, and more power with regard to appointments,
should be conceded. So far, then, as regards dele-
gation of statutory powers exercised by the Govern-
ment of India in Bengal, there is no great need for a
general Act of delegation such as Act V of 1868 : and
there would be obvious advantages in specific amend-
ing legislation, or at least in a full citation of Acts
and sections and powers delegated. But a delegating
Act, with safeguards, is required to permit of full and
reasonable delegation of powers by the Local Govern-
ment to inferior authorities.
There is no doubt at times a tendency in the
departments of the Government of India towards
excessive rigidity and uniformity. Much depends on
personal idiosyncrasies and experience. In times past
the Revenue and Agricultural Department of the
Government of India has had insufficient knowledge
of conditions in Bengal, and on a supposed analogy
of other provinces, has pressed economies in the
survey and record writing which, if accepted, would
have seriously impaired the accuracy and value of the
records. The Home Department is not always
sympathetic in handling proposals regarding education.
As a measure of reform it is suggested that a
Lieutenant-Governor of a province should not be
finally over-ruled, in matters great or small, unless
with the concurrence of His Excellency the Viceroy,
and in important matters not until after discussion in
Council. It is also suggested that orders of the
Government of India disallowing a Lieutenant-Gover-
nor’s proposals should more often take the form of
suggestions, or at least be passed after giving oppor-
tunity to show further cause or after discussion
unofficial or otherwise.
Except occasionally in matters of expenditure, there
is not a tendency in the Imperial Secretariat to con-
sider matters too much from a purely departmental
standpoint ; nor can I remember cases, unless one or
two only throughout my service, in which I have
thought that the Government of India was unduly
dominated by considerations of revenue.
The proper sphere of work for Directors and
Inspectors-General under the Government of India
dealing with departments which are primarily adminis-
tered by Local Governments is to inspect and to
advise. The instructions issued at the time of the
appointment of the Inspector-General of Agriculture,
Director-General of Education and Inspector-General
of Excise and Salt were very suitable. It would be
better to call such officers “ Inspectors-General” rather
than (as in the case of Education at present)
11 Director-General.” Care should be taken not to
dictate to, or overrule, a Local Government on the
strength of advice given by an Inspector-General, until
the Local Government has been fully heard.
The initiative in administrative reforms relating to
the land in this province, excepting the Department
of Agriculture, has come chiefly or entirely from the
Provincial Government and its officers. So also with
regard to municipal and local self-government. In
reforms carried out under the head of police, criminal
and civil justice, excise, emigration, sanitation, educa-
tion and agriculture, the initiative has been divided.
The Commissions, which have done so much to clear
the ground for, and introduce, reforms, have been
appointed, as is believed, to deal with defects pointed
out and proposals made for the most part by the
various Local Governments. Proposals for reforms
submitted by the Bengal Government have often been
improved by the Government of India ; but remedial
measures have also been seriously delayed by discus-
sions between the two Governments. As instances of
such delays may be cited the discussions which pre-
ceded the reorganization of the police, the discussions
of the pending Bengal Local Government and Muni-
cipal Bills, the Calcutta Improvement Trust and the
proposals for increasing the cadre of Deputy Magis-
trates and Deputy Collectors.
The right of appeal now granted in this province in
respect to administrative action is not excessive, nor
are such appeals numerous. I should be opposed to
laying down that no such appeal should be admitted
unless accompanied by a certificate from the Local
Government that reasonable grounds of appeal exist.
I would not curtail the right of appeal now granted to
officers of Government against orders affecting them
personally.
I am generally in favour of an extension of the
powers of the Board of Revenue, Commissioners of
divisions and District Officers in matters relating to
revenue, general administration and Court of Wards.
This subject has received much attention in Bengal in
recent years.
The influence of the Bengal Government is not in
the direction of excessive rigidity or uniformity, nor
is the ordinary tendency of the Provincial Secretariat
to regard matters too much from a purely depart-
mental standard. The Bengal Government has never
before been in so close touch as at present with its
officers and with those leaders of the people who have
a right to be consulted. This result has been obtained