DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0188
The Hon.
Mr. William
Charles
Macpherson.
29 Jan., 1908.
182 MINUTES OE EVIDENCE:
18816. Is there anything which you would wish to
say in addition ?—No, my experience with regard to
the help and advice given by Inspectors and Directors-
General is altogether favourable, and I would not wish
to be without such assistance.
18817. With regard to one particular item of their
work, Mr. Slacke stated that a Director-General would
consider whether work was being carried out on
proper lines; supposing in the opinion of the Director-
General the work was not being carried out on proper
lines, would you agree that he should report to the
Governor of India to that effect ?—He is bound to
report to the Governor of India.
18818. What is the action in the case, say, of the
management of a farm—is the Government of India
to interfere with the discretion of the Local Govern-
ment in such a matter ?—I am not sure that it is part
of the province of the Government of India to go
into the details of the management of a farm : they
would advice, and in some cases it is very hard to
distinguish between details and principle.
18819. Suppose the Government of India were to
write and say “ Our Inspector-General says such and
such a farm is not well managed ” and the Local
Government wrote back and said “We disagree, it is
well managed,” would the correspondence cease there?
—I think so in the case of an experimental station.
But I can hardly conceive that the Local Government
would not adopt the advice of the greatest expert in
India with regard to the management of a farm.
18820. Are you in agreement with Mr. Slacke that
curtailment of the right of appeal would be a doubtful
proceeding?—I see no necessity for it ; so far as
regards statutory appeal, there is very little to the
Goverment of India.
18821. With regard to questions of revenue and so
forth, are you in agreement with him that any curtail-
ment of appeals would be unwise?—There is very
little that goes to the Government of India in the way
of appeal in revenue matters. I have never seen any
harm come from the existence of such powers of
appeal as there are.
18822. Do you also agree that transfers of officers
are too frequent ?—Yes, certainly.
18823. And that the knowledge of the vernacular is
too limited ?—Yes, it is too limited.
18824. And that the time during which an officer
ought to be kept in a district should be at least three
years ?—I think that is very desirable.
18825. Would you put any limit, ordinarily, on the
stay of an officer in a district ?—I would not put an
absolute limit. I have known an officer stay for 12
years in a district and do much good there, but five
years is about as reasonable a period as can be fixed.
18826. Would that apply not only to Collectors but
Commissioners ?—I would apply it to officers generally.
18827. Do you also think that the staff of officers is
insufficient?—I have never served in a district in
Bengal which has had a staff at all adequate for the
work.
18828. Should any increase be in the higher or in
the lower Services ?—In both—in both the Imperial
and the Provincial Services.
18829. Do you wish to see an increase in the number
of Joint-Magistrates ?—Yes.
18830. In what rank of the lower Services should
the increase be?—There should be an increase of
Deputy Collectors.
18831. You are not in favour of Advisory or Ad-
ministrative Councils ?—Not for District Officers at all
events.
18832. Or for Divisional Officers?—That is a matter
more open to discussion. The District Officer has to
act more promptly: he is a Magistrate, and his
functions are largely executive, while the Commis-
sioner’s functions are more administrative, and he has
more time to act. I think the work of a district, so
far as it can be made over to a Council, is sufficiently
provided for in our Local Self-government and Muni-
cipal Acts, that is to say, much work has already been
made over to District Boards and municipalities.
18833. Do Commissioners at the present moment
consult the residents in their division ?—Certainly.
18834. Do District Officers do the samel thing?—It
would be very exceptional to find that a District Officer
had cut himself off from discussion with the people
who ought to be consulted in his district with regard
to any measure in which he was going to take im-
portant action.
18835. Is sufficient care now taken with regard to
the selection and promotion of officers in the province
generally ?—Great care is taken so far as the weakness
of the staff permits in making selection of officers,
not only for particular appointments, but for particular
districts.
18836. Do you agree with your colleague who said
that the weakness of the staff necessitated not so much
the passing over of an officer not sufficiently qualified,
as his promotion to a less troublesome district ?—I
agree that the result of the paucity of the staff
compels you to send a man to a less important dis-
trict, though you do not refuse him the appointment
altogether.
18837. And all the evils consequent upon frequent
transfers then follow ?—It aggravates the position.
18838. You would like to see something done in
the way of giving powers to village communities ?—
Yes, I think it is the hope of the future. We have
not much left in Bengal now in the shape of a village
community in the sense of an indigenous institution.
I think there must be new development in that way.
18839. What size should such villages or groups of
villages be ?—It is exceedingly difficult to say, because
if you increase the size of a community you lose the
local knowledge which is so often useful. Experiments
have been made with big unions. In big unions you
have more choice of good men, while in favour of
little unions it is to be said that you get the men who
know about all the local affairs. The general feeling,
perhaps, in the province is in favour of 10 chaukidari
beats, representing, perhaps, about 5,000 people for a
union.
18840. With a community of that size might you
make an experiment in the way of self-government in
regard to local matters?—I should be prepared to
make experiments on a much smaller scale than that if
there were the funds and the means of organization.
18141. With what size village would you make a
beginning?—In a district like Hooghly where the
people are advanced you might find in a village of 500
or 1,000 some intelligent persons who would be quite
competent to look after the sanitation and perform
minor magisterial duties, while on the other hand in
Chota Nagpur and Bihar you might not find them in
a village of 5,000.
18842. Are you prepared to see an attempt made to
revive village autonomy within the limits you suggest ?
—I would prefer to say “ develop village administra-
tion ” rather than “ revive village autonomy ” ; it is
doubtful whether we ever had autonomy in villages
over a great part of Bengal.
18843. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) With regard to the
general Act of delegation, do you say that there is no
great need for an Act as between the Government of
Bengal and the Government of Lidia ?—Not in
revenue matters ; there are not many statutory powers
of the Government of India in revenue matters, or so
many as to require a delegating Act as between the
Government of India and the Goverment of Bengal.
18844. Supposing such an Act applied to all depart-
ments, would it then be useful ?—Such an Act would
be useful if you mean generally as between the Govern-
ment and its officers. The Government of Bengal and
the Board of Revenue have almost plenary powers
under Statute in regard to revenue matters.
18845. Then you limit your remarks to revenue
matters ?—Yes.
18846. But there are a great many matters outside
revenue, in which you think such an Act would be
useful as regards the whole sphere of administration of
Local Governments generally?—I think it probably
would be useful.
18847. Could it be sufficiently safeguarded in the
way Mr. Slacke suggested ?—I understand that Mr.
Slacke said that he would allow the Government of
India to decide after hearing public opinion—that was.
his solution.
Mr. William
Charles
Macpherson.
29 Jan., 1908.
182 MINUTES OE EVIDENCE:
18816. Is there anything which you would wish to
say in addition ?—No, my experience with regard to
the help and advice given by Inspectors and Directors-
General is altogether favourable, and I would not wish
to be without such assistance.
18817. With regard to one particular item of their
work, Mr. Slacke stated that a Director-General would
consider whether work was being carried out on
proper lines; supposing in the opinion of the Director-
General the work was not being carried out on proper
lines, would you agree that he should report to the
Governor of India to that effect ?—He is bound to
report to the Governor of India.
18818. What is the action in the case, say, of the
management of a farm—is the Government of India
to interfere with the discretion of the Local Govern-
ment in such a matter ?—I am not sure that it is part
of the province of the Government of India to go
into the details of the management of a farm : they
would advice, and in some cases it is very hard to
distinguish between details and principle.
18819. Suppose the Government of India were to
write and say “ Our Inspector-General says such and
such a farm is not well managed ” and the Local
Government wrote back and said “We disagree, it is
well managed,” would the correspondence cease there?
—I think so in the case of an experimental station.
But I can hardly conceive that the Local Government
would not adopt the advice of the greatest expert in
India with regard to the management of a farm.
18820. Are you in agreement with Mr. Slacke that
curtailment of the right of appeal would be a doubtful
proceeding?—I see no necessity for it ; so far as
regards statutory appeal, there is very little to the
Goverment of India.
18821. With regard to questions of revenue and so
forth, are you in agreement with him that any curtail-
ment of appeals would be unwise?—There is very
little that goes to the Government of India in the way
of appeal in revenue matters. I have never seen any
harm come from the existence of such powers of
appeal as there are.
18822. Do you also agree that transfers of officers
are too frequent ?—Yes, certainly.
18823. And that the knowledge of the vernacular is
too limited ?—Yes, it is too limited.
18824. And that the time during which an officer
ought to be kept in a district should be at least three
years ?—I think that is very desirable.
18825. Would you put any limit, ordinarily, on the
stay of an officer in a district ?—I would not put an
absolute limit. I have known an officer stay for 12
years in a district and do much good there, but five
years is about as reasonable a period as can be fixed.
18826. Would that apply not only to Collectors but
Commissioners ?—I would apply it to officers generally.
18827. Do you also think that the staff of officers is
insufficient?—I have never served in a district in
Bengal which has had a staff at all adequate for the
work.
18828. Should any increase be in the higher or in
the lower Services ?—In both—in both the Imperial
and the Provincial Services.
18829. Do you wish to see an increase in the number
of Joint-Magistrates ?—Yes.
18830. In what rank of the lower Services should
the increase be?—There should be an increase of
Deputy Collectors.
18831. You are not in favour of Advisory or Ad-
ministrative Councils ?—Not for District Officers at all
events.
18832. Or for Divisional Officers?—That is a matter
more open to discussion. The District Officer has to
act more promptly: he is a Magistrate, and his
functions are largely executive, while the Commis-
sioner’s functions are more administrative, and he has
more time to act. I think the work of a district, so
far as it can be made over to a Council, is sufficiently
provided for in our Local Self-government and Muni-
cipal Acts, that is to say, much work has already been
made over to District Boards and municipalities.
18833. Do Commissioners at the present moment
consult the residents in their division ?—Certainly.
18834. Do District Officers do the samel thing?—It
would be very exceptional to find that a District Officer
had cut himself off from discussion with the people
who ought to be consulted in his district with regard
to any measure in which he was going to take im-
portant action.
18835. Is sufficient care now taken with regard to
the selection and promotion of officers in the province
generally ?—Great care is taken so far as the weakness
of the staff permits in making selection of officers,
not only for particular appointments, but for particular
districts.
18836. Do you agree with your colleague who said
that the weakness of the staff necessitated not so much
the passing over of an officer not sufficiently qualified,
as his promotion to a less troublesome district ?—I
agree that the result of the paucity of the staff
compels you to send a man to a less important dis-
trict, though you do not refuse him the appointment
altogether.
18837. And all the evils consequent upon frequent
transfers then follow ?—It aggravates the position.
18838. You would like to see something done in
the way of giving powers to village communities ?—
Yes, I think it is the hope of the future. We have
not much left in Bengal now in the shape of a village
community in the sense of an indigenous institution.
I think there must be new development in that way.
18839. What size should such villages or groups of
villages be ?—It is exceedingly difficult to say, because
if you increase the size of a community you lose the
local knowledge which is so often useful. Experiments
have been made with big unions. In big unions you
have more choice of good men, while in favour of
little unions it is to be said that you get the men who
know about all the local affairs. The general feeling,
perhaps, in the province is in favour of 10 chaukidari
beats, representing, perhaps, about 5,000 people for a
union.
18840. With a community of that size might you
make an experiment in the way of self-government in
regard to local matters?—I should be prepared to
make experiments on a much smaller scale than that if
there were the funds and the means of organization.
18141. With what size village would you make a
beginning?—In a district like Hooghly where the
people are advanced you might find in a village of 500
or 1,000 some intelligent persons who would be quite
competent to look after the sanitation and perform
minor magisterial duties, while on the other hand in
Chota Nagpur and Bihar you might not find them in
a village of 5,000.
18842. Are you prepared to see an attempt made to
revive village autonomy within the limits you suggest ?
—I would prefer to say “ develop village administra-
tion ” rather than “ revive village autonomy ” ; it is
doubtful whether we ever had autonomy in villages
over a great part of Bengal.
18843. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) With regard to the
general Act of delegation, do you say that there is no
great need for an Act as between the Government of
Bengal and the Government of Lidia ?—Not in
revenue matters ; there are not many statutory powers
of the Government of India in revenue matters, or so
many as to require a delegating Act as between the
Government of India and the Goverment of Bengal.
18844. Supposing such an Act applied to all depart-
ments, would it then be useful ?—Such an Act would
be useful if you mean generally as between the Govern-
ment and its officers. The Government of Bengal and
the Board of Revenue have almost plenary powers
under Statute in regard to revenue matters.
18845. Then you limit your remarks to revenue
matters ?—Yes.
18846. But there are a great many matters outside
revenue, in which you think such an Act would be
useful as regards the whole sphere of administration of
Local Governments generally?—I think it probably
would be useful.
18847. Could it be sufficiently safeguarded in the
way Mr. Slacke suggested ?—I understand that Mr.
Slacke said that he would allow the Government of
India to decide after hearing public opinion—that was.
his solution.