DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.45394#0018
16
TESTIMONY OF L. P. Di OESNOLA.
vice-presidents, the secretary and treasurer-pre-
sident, Mr. John Taylor Johnston; first vice-
president, Mr. Prime; second vice-president,
Daniel Huntington; the treasurer at that time
was Mr. F. W. Rhinelander and secretary was
myself. Then there are several trustees.
Q. Well, state who they were?
A. Rutherford Stuyvesant was one—at what
period?
Q. When you opened the museum at the Park
in 1879?
A. Robert Hoe, Jr., Henry G. Marquand, Wil-
liam E. Dodge, Jr., William L. Andrews; that is
all I remember.
Q. What were the relations, I mean official
relations as to the discharge of duties, between
the Director and the executive committee?
A. The executive committee is the body' who
control and give orders to the Director, and the
Director depends entirely upon the executive
committee.
Q. Acts under their instructions?
A. Under their instructions.
Q. Was there any conference between the Di-
rector and the executive committee at that time
as to what should be done in regard to putting
the Cesnola collection of statuary into order for
exhibition?
A. Several times—several conferences.
Q. State the substance of them?
A. The substance was that the collection should
be placed, as far as the Cesnola collection is con-
cerned, should be thoroughly repaired and placed
on exhibition for permanent and durable exhibi-
tion; that the condition of the stone should be
studied, the surface should be well ascertained in
what condition it was-
Mr. Bangs: Were those instructions in writing?
The Witness: No, sir; verbal.
Mr. Bangs: Were they recorded on the minutes ?
A. Most of them, I believe they are.
Mr. Bangs: Well, then let us have the minutes.
Mr. Choate: Go on and state them as you re-
•member them.
Mr. Bangs : No, sir; please don’t go on and
state them. If the directions are in writing are
we not entitled to them in that form?
Q. These conferences that you had were not
in writing; were they?
The Court: Conferences could not be very well
in writing. If there were any directions by the
Executive Committee which are in writing, I
think Mr. Bangs is entitled to them. I think'it
would be a fair inference that those directions
embodied in brief the conferences; but at this
point I think he has a right to state what the con-
ferences were. Were these verbal directions given
in conferences subsequently or previously em-
bodied in written directions from the executive
committee or written memoranda upon their
minutes?
The Witness: Some of the conferences were
verbal and were not in a body of the executive
committee, as in a regular meeting orderswere in
a body. When a meeting took placethose that
were given to me in a meeting they must be re-
corded in the minutes; butthose given to me ver-
bally by the executive committee in the Central
Park or elsewhere, of course they' were not taken
down as they were not representing at that mo-
ment the committee in meeting.
The Court: I think he can go on and state.
Q. Go on with your statement of the sub-
stance of these conferences?
Mr. Bangs: In committee?
The Court: No, no. My idea ls that what he
calls conferences he means were conversations be-
tween him and the executive committee.
After some further discussion the Court allowed
the question to be put, stating that it understood
tho question to mean the substance of the verbal
conferences between the Director and the mem-
bers of the committee either in or out of session;
stating, however, that if there were any records
made in regard to this subject by' the executive
committee they ought to be produced.
(223G) Q. Now go on please and state the
substance of the conferences about what should
be done?
the
in the repair room, what was done with it?
Mr. Bangs objects and states that the question
should be confined to what he saw.
The Court overrules the objection and states
that it is competent to show what was done with
an object after it was repaired.
(2239) Q. Please answer the question?
A. The objects after being repaired were
brought up stairs in the grand hall and placed
on the pavement of the grand hall waiting for
classification.
Q. Now, will you please state to the jury ex-
actly what the method of repair adopted and fol-
lowed was, taking in the first class, the case of
an object of which the entire fragments were in
your possession.
A. You mean the entire piece or only the frag-
ments of it?
Q. The entire fragments of a statue so that
you had the entire body there in fragments;
now, what was your method of repair?
A. As I stated substantially, the first thing to
be done was to put them in this bath and detach
all the work which was done before. Then the
pieces which formerly belonged to the object it-
self where there was not a possible doubt as to
their having been formerly a portion of the same
of the museum?
(Objected to as immaterial and incompe-
tent; the Court overrules the objection,
staling that it thinks it is competent to
show that some part of his time was spent
in corresponding.)
Q. Is that so?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. To what extent were you able to and did
you give personal attention to the work that was
going on in the repairing room?
A. Well, about one-twentieth of my day’s
work.
Q. As the repairing of an object was completed
Q. How were Vney connected—fastened to-
gether—such pieces—such fragments?
A. They were connected if they were large
pieces with rods of copper; then they brought
the two surfaces as near as the condition of the
stone, the condition of the edge more or less
separated would permit, and when they were
brought as near as possibly could be, the portion
which remained as to which not touching one side
or the other, leaving some crack, those were filled
up with a proper cement so that it would keep
this stone and the edges thoroughly in connection
close together as much as possible.
(2240) Q. And what was done in the way of
a wash upon the point of juncture?
A. What was used?
Q. And for what purpose was it used ?
A. The next consideration was when the pieces
have been put together and this cement discon-
nected the two fractures there was still a certain
dampness, which if left entirely uncovered would
work, as I said before, in deteriorating or disin-
tegrating the edges and the surface of the repairs
of the stone; I then told Balliard if he was able
to find some way—some means, by which the
junctures so mended—so repaired, could be kept,
from disintegration ; he said: “ I think the only
way that it could be experimented upon is to
take some glue—some mucilage—some milk, and
some of the dust of the stone; that will form a
very light film all over the surface and will keep
the air out;” we tried that on one or two places,
and after several days I was satisfied that that
would probably be the best means to preserve
the surface; I then directed Mr. Balliard to go
ahead, and on all the work which was repaired
by him, on all the junction, the two edges, and
the portion of the cement put to keep them to-
gether should be covered with this wash ; there
never has been any wash over the surface of the
statues only on the portions so repaired.
(2241) Did the use of the dust of the stone as
the base of that wash have also the effect of mak-
ing the statue look entire?
A. Probably so ; it had certainly the effect of
getting the color; the milk by becoming old takes
the old color; and the stone with the mucilage
gives more or less the same color of the surface.
Q. You knew that the effect was to be pro-
duced?
A. We tried it.
Q. And that was your intention too?
A. Most certainly.
Q. Did you regard that as a proper method of
repair?
(Objected to by Mr. Bangs on’the ground
that it is not right to ask this witness the
question about what he thinks of the pro-
priety of his doing what he has done.)
After some further discussion the Court said;
A. The substance of the conferences was
that after talking the matter over, the condition
of the statues in which they came from 14tli
street, as to what would be the best way to pre¬
serve the stone from utter disintegration and
loss, the result arrived at was that the best and
only way by which we could save the stone from
disintegration was by a thorough removing of
all the repairs which had been made in 14th
street, by Gehlen with plaster. They found that
the connection of the plaster with the two edges
of the fracture had the effect of disintegrating,
the two edges so that the disintegration of the
stone was not only on the surface itself, but also
on the edges of the fracture. After some other
talk, they said that what would, be the best
method to do it would be to build a large tank
in the basement, and there each of these biggest
statues put inside—soaked—at any rate, try to
detach all the work done by Gehlen; and after
this work is thoroughly done, take the piece by
piece out of the bath, thoroughly clean it, and
then repair the pieces which belonged to each
statue; and when they are so repaired mount
them on a pedestal and then put them on exhi¬
bition. After receiving that information, which
was to me an order, came from the executive _=_r_ _
committee whether in session or not I can’t say, I object were put together by Balliard, and when
and I began to take the necessary disposition. I they were so cor •ccted they were sent up stairs,
had atank built; I had the water brought from j TT”~ -- ,r-
the cellar up and the work of undoing the work
done by Mr. Gehlen was begun.
(2237) Q. Did you undertake after these con¬
ferences to superintend that work?
A. I did.
Q. Did you intend that before it was placed on
exhibition all the work done by Gehlen in 14th
street, should be removed?
A. Most assuredly.
Q. Who was employed under you to do
work?
A. A man named Charles Balliard.
Q. Anyone else with him—an assistant?
A. And a man named Vallozio, an assistant.
Q. Now, about when did this work of re¬
moval.
of what was done or added by Gehlen in 14th
street begin?
A. It began some time in the Summer of 1879.
Q. And nine months prior to the formal open¬
ing of the exhibition?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whereabouts in the museum building was
it done so far as it was done?
A. It was done in a room, I believe to be in
the northwest side of the building facing the
Park.
(2238) Q. Is that the same room that has been
frequently referred to by witnesses here as the
repairing room ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, while that was being done in that
room by Balliard and Vallozio, how were you
occupied and employed personally?
A. I was occupied in a hundred things. I was
occupied in arranging the collection—the loan
collections, the Cesnola collection, the classifying
of the objects to select the duplicates out of them,
and in fact a little of everything. 1 had the en¬
tire charge and responsibility of placing the en¬
tire building in a state of public exhibition as
soon as it could be done and therefore my work
was of every kind, and I had to be everywhere.
Q. Who conducted the correspondence, or did
you conduct any of the correspondence on the
part
TESTIMONY OF L. P. Di OESNOLA.
vice-presidents, the secretary and treasurer-pre-
sident, Mr. John Taylor Johnston; first vice-
president, Mr. Prime; second vice-president,
Daniel Huntington; the treasurer at that time
was Mr. F. W. Rhinelander and secretary was
myself. Then there are several trustees.
Q. Well, state who they were?
A. Rutherford Stuyvesant was one—at what
period?
Q. When you opened the museum at the Park
in 1879?
A. Robert Hoe, Jr., Henry G. Marquand, Wil-
liam E. Dodge, Jr., William L. Andrews; that is
all I remember.
Q. What were the relations, I mean official
relations as to the discharge of duties, between
the Director and the executive committee?
A. The executive committee is the body' who
control and give orders to the Director, and the
Director depends entirely upon the executive
committee.
Q. Acts under their instructions?
A. Under their instructions.
Q. Was there any conference between the Di-
rector and the executive committee at that time
as to what should be done in regard to putting
the Cesnola collection of statuary into order for
exhibition?
A. Several times—several conferences.
Q. State the substance of them?
A. The substance was that the collection should
be placed, as far as the Cesnola collection is con-
cerned, should be thoroughly repaired and placed
on exhibition for permanent and durable exhibi-
tion; that the condition of the stone should be
studied, the surface should be well ascertained in
what condition it was-
Mr. Bangs: Were those instructions in writing?
The Witness: No, sir; verbal.
Mr. Bangs: Were they recorded on the minutes ?
A. Most of them, I believe they are.
Mr. Bangs: Well, then let us have the minutes.
Mr. Choate: Go on and state them as you re-
•member them.
Mr. Bangs : No, sir; please don’t go on and
state them. If the directions are in writing are
we not entitled to them in that form?
Q. These conferences that you had were not
in writing; were they?
The Court: Conferences could not be very well
in writing. If there were any directions by the
Executive Committee which are in writing, I
think Mr. Bangs is entitled to them. I think'it
would be a fair inference that those directions
embodied in brief the conferences; but at this
point I think he has a right to state what the con-
ferences were. Were these verbal directions given
in conferences subsequently or previously em-
bodied in written directions from the executive
committee or written memoranda upon their
minutes?
The Witness: Some of the conferences were
verbal and were not in a body of the executive
committee, as in a regular meeting orderswere in
a body. When a meeting took placethose that
were given to me in a meeting they must be re-
corded in the minutes; butthose given to me ver-
bally by the executive committee in the Central
Park or elsewhere, of course they' were not taken
down as they were not representing at that mo-
ment the committee in meeting.
The Court: I think he can go on and state.
Q. Go on with your statement of the sub-
stance of these conferences?
Mr. Bangs: In committee?
The Court: No, no. My idea ls that what he
calls conferences he means were conversations be-
tween him and the executive committee.
After some further discussion the Court allowed
the question to be put, stating that it understood
tho question to mean the substance of the verbal
conferences between the Director and the mem-
bers of the committee either in or out of session;
stating, however, that if there were any records
made in regard to this subject by' the executive
committee they ought to be produced.
(223G) Q. Now go on please and state the
substance of the conferences about what should
be done?
the
in the repair room, what was done with it?
Mr. Bangs objects and states that the question
should be confined to what he saw.
The Court overrules the objection and states
that it is competent to show what was done with
an object after it was repaired.
(2239) Q. Please answer the question?
A. The objects after being repaired were
brought up stairs in the grand hall and placed
on the pavement of the grand hall waiting for
classification.
Q. Now, will you please state to the jury ex-
actly what the method of repair adopted and fol-
lowed was, taking in the first class, the case of
an object of which the entire fragments were in
your possession.
A. You mean the entire piece or only the frag-
ments of it?
Q. The entire fragments of a statue so that
you had the entire body there in fragments;
now, what was your method of repair?
A. As I stated substantially, the first thing to
be done was to put them in this bath and detach
all the work which was done before. Then the
pieces which formerly belonged to the object it-
self where there was not a possible doubt as to
their having been formerly a portion of the same
of the museum?
(Objected to as immaterial and incompe-
tent; the Court overrules the objection,
staling that it thinks it is competent to
show that some part of his time was spent
in corresponding.)
Q. Is that so?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. To what extent were you able to and did
you give personal attention to the work that was
going on in the repairing room?
A. Well, about one-twentieth of my day’s
work.
Q. As the repairing of an object was completed
Q. How were Vney connected—fastened to-
gether—such pieces—such fragments?
A. They were connected if they were large
pieces with rods of copper; then they brought
the two surfaces as near as the condition of the
stone, the condition of the edge more or less
separated would permit, and when they were
brought as near as possibly could be, the portion
which remained as to which not touching one side
or the other, leaving some crack, those were filled
up with a proper cement so that it would keep
this stone and the edges thoroughly in connection
close together as much as possible.
(2240) Q. And what was done in the way of
a wash upon the point of juncture?
A. What was used?
Q. And for what purpose was it used ?
A. The next consideration was when the pieces
have been put together and this cement discon-
nected the two fractures there was still a certain
dampness, which if left entirely uncovered would
work, as I said before, in deteriorating or disin-
tegrating the edges and the surface of the repairs
of the stone; I then told Balliard if he was able
to find some way—some means, by which the
junctures so mended—so repaired, could be kept,
from disintegration ; he said: “ I think the only
way that it could be experimented upon is to
take some glue—some mucilage—some milk, and
some of the dust of the stone; that will form a
very light film all over the surface and will keep
the air out;” we tried that on one or two places,
and after several days I was satisfied that that
would probably be the best means to preserve
the surface; I then directed Mr. Balliard to go
ahead, and on all the work which was repaired
by him, on all the junction, the two edges, and
the portion of the cement put to keep them to-
gether should be covered with this wash ; there
never has been any wash over the surface of the
statues only on the portions so repaired.
(2241) Did the use of the dust of the stone as
the base of that wash have also the effect of mak-
ing the statue look entire?
A. Probably so ; it had certainly the effect of
getting the color; the milk by becoming old takes
the old color; and the stone with the mucilage
gives more or less the same color of the surface.
Q. You knew that the effect was to be pro-
duced?
A. We tried it.
Q. And that was your intention too?
A. Most certainly.
Q. Did you regard that as a proper method of
repair?
(Objected to by Mr. Bangs on’the ground
that it is not right to ask this witness the
question about what he thinks of the pro-
priety of his doing what he has done.)
After some further discussion the Court said;
A. The substance of the conferences was
that after talking the matter over, the condition
of the statues in which they came from 14tli
street, as to what would be the best way to pre¬
serve the stone from utter disintegration and
loss, the result arrived at was that the best and
only way by which we could save the stone from
disintegration was by a thorough removing of
all the repairs which had been made in 14th
street, by Gehlen with plaster. They found that
the connection of the plaster with the two edges
of the fracture had the effect of disintegrating,
the two edges so that the disintegration of the
stone was not only on the surface itself, but also
on the edges of the fracture. After some other
talk, they said that what would, be the best
method to do it would be to build a large tank
in the basement, and there each of these biggest
statues put inside—soaked—at any rate, try to
detach all the work done by Gehlen; and after
this work is thoroughly done, take the piece by
piece out of the bath, thoroughly clean it, and
then repair the pieces which belonged to each
statue; and when they are so repaired mount
them on a pedestal and then put them on exhi¬
bition. After receiving that information, which
was to me an order, came from the executive _=_r_ _
committee whether in session or not I can’t say, I object were put together by Balliard, and when
and I began to take the necessary disposition. I they were so cor •ccted they were sent up stairs,
had atank built; I had the water brought from j TT”~ -- ,r-
the cellar up and the work of undoing the work
done by Mr. Gehlen was begun.
(2237) Q. Did you undertake after these con¬
ferences to superintend that work?
A. I did.
Q. Did you intend that before it was placed on
exhibition all the work done by Gehlen in 14th
street, should be removed?
A. Most assuredly.
Q. Who was employed under you to do
work?
A. A man named Charles Balliard.
Q. Anyone else with him—an assistant?
A. And a man named Vallozio, an assistant.
Q. Now, about when did this work of re¬
moval.
of what was done or added by Gehlen in 14th
street begin?
A. It began some time in the Summer of 1879.
Q. And nine months prior to the formal open¬
ing of the exhibition?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whereabouts in the museum building was
it done so far as it was done?
A. It was done in a room, I believe to be in
the northwest side of the building facing the
Park.
(2238) Q. Is that the same room that has been
frequently referred to by witnesses here as the
repairing room ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, while that was being done in that
room by Balliard and Vallozio, how were you
occupied and employed personally?
A. I was occupied in a hundred things. I was
occupied in arranging the collection—the loan
collections, the Cesnola collection, the classifying
of the objects to select the duplicates out of them,
and in fact a little of everything. 1 had the en¬
tire charge and responsibility of placing the en¬
tire building in a state of public exhibition as
soon as it could be done and therefore my work
was of every kind, and I had to be everywhere.
Q. Who conducted the correspondence, or did
you conduct any of the correspondence on the
part