DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.45394#0019
TESTIMONY OF L. P. Di CESNOLA.
17
I think there is some force in what Mr. Bangs
suggests as to the meaning of the word
“proper;” I think you can ask him if in his
opinion this repair was necessary; if so, why it
was necessary; if it was for the purpose of pro-
tecting the stone from deterioration by dampness
or for any other purpose; and iu what oilier
ways he regarded, if he did regard, this appli-
cation as necessary or material.
(2242) Mr. Choate: Well, you heard the ques-
tions as directed by the Court?
The Witness: I consider it indispensable.
The Court: Well, why?
The Witness: In order to save the surface of
the parts brought together from further disin-
tegration, and nothing else.
Q. Did you honestly use your best judgment
in adopting this method?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Did you regard it as in any manner- an ob-
jection that the color of the wash used at the
points of junction w’as the same color as the rest
of the statue?
A. I would have preferred not; but, neverthe¬
less, I had not the possibility of doing it in any
other way but in that way.
Q. Why not?
A. Because in the other way I would have to
have left the cement entirely uncovered and the
action of the air would have acted upon it.
Q. What have you observed as to the effect by
exposure to the atmosphere on the broken sur-
faces of this Cypriote stone, and especia'ly what
have you observed as to the effect of the plaster
upon it uncovered by any such wash?
A. I found that the disintegration of the Cy-
prus stone in our climate was going on on all the
surface, whether broken or not; but on broken
pieces which had been put together with plaster
the disintegration was g< ing on much faster; then
the question came, how shall we save these stone
from further disintegration? Mr. Balliard said:
“I think that this will do.” We had six or seven
objects airanged so and left them for a couple of
months to see what effect it would have; and
then I became convinced that a very light film
put over it would protect, keeping the air from
disintegrating the stone, and I said do the others
just exactly like it.
(2243) Q. How easily is this application re-
moved from the points of junction ?
A. A sponge and a little water takes it away in
one second.
Q. Had you anybody else’s experience in the
treatment of Cypriote stone to guide you ?
A. I had that of the Louvre Museum, where
they had repaired several Cypriote stone and I
followed exactly the same system which the
Louvre had.
Q. Did you also know or do you also know of
the same method being employed in London ?
A. I do not.
Q. Well, haven’t you a slab or a tablet ?
A. I have one in my collection which was re-
paired by the British Museum repairer called
Robert Ready while the collection was in the
hands of the plaintiff.
Mr. Choate: I want to have that produced and
shown to the jury.
(2344) Q. By Mr. Bangs: Will you allow
me to ask whether in that answer you have stated
all within your knowledge about its being repaired
by the repairer of the British Museum ; do you
know that ?
A. Mr. Ready told me himself.
Q. Who ?
A. Ready.
Q. Who is Ready ?
A. The repairer of the British Museum.
Q. Robert Ready ?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bangs. That is hearsay, I suppose, if the
Court please.
Mr. Choate: It won’t be hearsay when the
jury seethe thing, I suppose, if your Honor please.
We have the right to show that it came from the
hands of the repairer of the British Museum.
Mr. Bangs: Certainly; but what the repairer
said you have not the right to show.
Mr Choate. It will speak for itself.
Q. By Mr. Choate: Did Mr. Feuardent tell
you anything about it ?
A. Yes, sir ; he did.
Q. What did he say ?
A. He told me he had sent it to the British
Museum to. repair it.
Q. Is this the article (showing witness a
slab)?
A. Yes, sir.
(2245) Q. Is that repaired in the same way?
A. Pretty nearly so.
Q. Is it in the same method of the coloration
of the matter put iu?
A. Yes, sir; except that the material seems to
be different. That seems lobe plaster.
Q. Do you also observe that the line of the
original piece of sculpture or design is carried
out across the fracture in this?
A. Yes, sir ; the altar.
Q. Is this as it came from the hands of the re-
pairer of the British Museum?
A. It is exactly as it came from his bands.
Q. Look at the picture now shown you in
Doell and say whether that is the correct repre-
sentation of it as it was found in Cyprus?
A. Yes, sir ; it is exactly as it was found.
Q. Where did this thing come from?
A. Fiom Golgos ; from the temple.
Mr. Bangs: By repairer you mean Mr. Ready;
do you?
Mr. Choate: I mean the repairer of the British
Museum, whoever he was?
Mr. Bangs: Is that what the witness says ?
Mr. Choate: I so understood him.
Q. (By Mr. Bangs.) Did Mr. Robert Ready put
that thing in its present condition?
A. It has always been so to my knowledge ;
never been touched by anybody.
Q. Did you receive it from him?
A. I received it from the plaintiff.
(2246) Q. And he told you that Robert Ready
had done that?
A. He told me that he had it done by the
British Museum for the purpose of taking a cast,
and then Mr. Ready told me that he did it him-
self.
Q. Did Mr. Ready tell you that he did it for
the purpose of taking a cast?
A. Mo, sir; I had authorized the British
Museum to get casts of these things; and I wan-
ted to have it in order to take casts for the British
Museum.
Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Now, what was the
effect of the bathing besides the removal of the
addition of plaster that had been applied by
Gehlen?
A. Had the effect of removing also the incrus-
tation of matter which on some of the objects had
remained, and which could not be removed
easily without being soaked in water.
Q. Did water in all cases remove that?
A. Not in all cases.
Q. Or the whole of it?
A. Not the whole of it.
Q. Will you please explain to the jury what
that incrustation was, and if you can show them
any specimens of it so that they may understand
it, do so?
A. I have some. I believe there are some in
court now. There is a big head and a cup which
have the incrustation to-day after having been
put in the bath, after having tried to remove it
in every possible way, and it is still the incrusta-
tion over it, and if you try to remove it you take
the surface of the stone with it.
Q. What do you understand that surface of in-
crustation to be besides dirt?
A. It is a composition of what I believe to be
lime, but I am not sure as I am not a judge.
(2247) Q. Formed in the course of centuries
on these objects?
A. It is a triculation through of water, I be-
lieve .
Q. Will you look at this illustration in Colvin
and see if it is his picture of the slab just shown
you after repair?
A. Yes, sir; exactly.
Q. That was taken in London; was it?
A. Yes, sir.
Offered in evidence by defendant and marked
Exhibit 184, this date.
Q. What effect upon the general appearance
of the statues as exhibited did this cleansing in
the bath produce?
A. It makes them look ,a little whiter, prob-
ably, than the stone originally was; but in time
they get the same color again.
Q. Does this account for the whiter appearance
of the objects exhibited in Central Park than
they appeared to have in Fourteenth Street?
A. I don’t think there is any material difference
between the color now and what it was in Four-
teenth Street.
Q. But 1 mean the cleanliness and brightness?
A. Oh, yes, sir; that is the reason.
Q. Is it true that the exhibition as presented
now is of entirely new objects?
A. New objects.
Q. That they look new?
A. That dep tnds upon what person says so. I
should say certainly not.
(22474) Q. Are there not many discolorations
very frequent upon the objects still?
A. The collection has more different hues of
color, more different quality, maiance, different
shade of colors on the stone, than anybody has
any idea of, only it requires some intelligent per-
son and not a superficial one to see ’who goes
there and looks at the collection. There are
changes entirely black if a person will only take
the trouble of seeing them.
Q. Where did this head now shown you come
from (503)?
A. That is not the head that I want to show.
That was also a head of Golgos, but it is not the
head of the man that has the incrustation on it.
It is a head of a woman that I wish to show.
Q. Have you any idea how long this incrusta-
tion is in forming?
A. I have no idea; I could not form an idea
upon it; it must have been many hundreds of
years.
Q. It is something entirely distinct from mere
earth and what we call earth and dust?
A. Quite so.
Q. To what thickness have you seen on any of
the objects this incrustation?
A. 1 could not state exactly, but that head will
exactly show the thickness of it, (referring to
504).
Q. The lines of the design almost are des-
troyed ?
A. That portion has been cleaned and the sur-
face has been nearly spoiled, and this part I
ordered not to be touched. All that is incrusta-
tion which cannot be got off.
(2248) Q. Well, it is at least a quarter of an
inch thick there ?
A. Yes, some places, and that has been through
baths, and washing, and scraping, and every-
thing else, and yet it remains there.
Q. (By Mr. Bangs.) Now, would you have any
objection to taking your penknife and cutting
some off?
A. No, sir.
Q. Suppose you try it?
A. Yes, sir; I will do so if somebody will give
me a knife. (Witness scrapes off some incrusta-
tion with knife before jury.) You see that is
the incrustation—that is the pure incrustation.
Q. (By a Juror.) Wouldn’t a wire brush take
it off?
A. No, sir; that has been done so, but it
wouldn’t take it off.
Q. (By Mr. Choate.) You may state in detail
what processes this head now produced by you
has been put through with a view of removing
this incrustation?
A. I suppose that the head remained about
over a month in a bath before they were able to
remove it, and it has never been able to be re-
moved; there is a quantity in front; Mr. Story,
the sculptor, has been trying to remove it, and
could not; there are other pieces on which it
cannot be removed.
Q. (By a Juror.) Was it all encrusted?
A. It was all entirely covered with incrusta-
17
I think there is some force in what Mr. Bangs
suggests as to the meaning of the word
“proper;” I think you can ask him if in his
opinion this repair was necessary; if so, why it
was necessary; if it was for the purpose of pro-
tecting the stone from deterioration by dampness
or for any other purpose; and iu what oilier
ways he regarded, if he did regard, this appli-
cation as necessary or material.
(2242) Mr. Choate: Well, you heard the ques-
tions as directed by the Court?
The Witness: I consider it indispensable.
The Court: Well, why?
The Witness: In order to save the surface of
the parts brought together from further disin-
tegration, and nothing else.
Q. Did you honestly use your best judgment
in adopting this method?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Did you regard it as in any manner- an ob-
jection that the color of the wash used at the
points of junction w’as the same color as the rest
of the statue?
A. I would have preferred not; but, neverthe¬
less, I had not the possibility of doing it in any
other way but in that way.
Q. Why not?
A. Because in the other way I would have to
have left the cement entirely uncovered and the
action of the air would have acted upon it.
Q. What have you observed as to the effect by
exposure to the atmosphere on the broken sur-
faces of this Cypriote stone, and especia'ly what
have you observed as to the effect of the plaster
upon it uncovered by any such wash?
A. I found that the disintegration of the Cy-
prus stone in our climate was going on on all the
surface, whether broken or not; but on broken
pieces which had been put together with plaster
the disintegration was g< ing on much faster; then
the question came, how shall we save these stone
from further disintegration? Mr. Balliard said:
“I think that this will do.” We had six or seven
objects airanged so and left them for a couple of
months to see what effect it would have; and
then I became convinced that a very light film
put over it would protect, keeping the air from
disintegrating the stone, and I said do the others
just exactly like it.
(2243) Q. How easily is this application re-
moved from the points of junction ?
A. A sponge and a little water takes it away in
one second.
Q. Had you anybody else’s experience in the
treatment of Cypriote stone to guide you ?
A. I had that of the Louvre Museum, where
they had repaired several Cypriote stone and I
followed exactly the same system which the
Louvre had.
Q. Did you also know or do you also know of
the same method being employed in London ?
A. I do not.
Q. Well, haven’t you a slab or a tablet ?
A. I have one in my collection which was re-
paired by the British Museum repairer called
Robert Ready while the collection was in the
hands of the plaintiff.
Mr. Choate: I want to have that produced and
shown to the jury.
(2344) Q. By Mr. Bangs: Will you allow
me to ask whether in that answer you have stated
all within your knowledge about its being repaired
by the repairer of the British Museum ; do you
know that ?
A. Mr. Ready told me himself.
Q. Who ?
A. Ready.
Q. Who is Ready ?
A. The repairer of the British Museum.
Q. Robert Ready ?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bangs. That is hearsay, I suppose, if the
Court please.
Mr. Choate: It won’t be hearsay when the
jury seethe thing, I suppose, if your Honor please.
We have the right to show that it came from the
hands of the repairer of the British Museum.
Mr. Bangs: Certainly; but what the repairer
said you have not the right to show.
Mr Choate. It will speak for itself.
Q. By Mr. Choate: Did Mr. Feuardent tell
you anything about it ?
A. Yes, sir ; he did.
Q. What did he say ?
A. He told me he had sent it to the British
Museum to. repair it.
Q. Is this the article (showing witness a
slab)?
A. Yes, sir.
(2245) Q. Is that repaired in the same way?
A. Pretty nearly so.
Q. Is it in the same method of the coloration
of the matter put iu?
A. Yes, sir; except that the material seems to
be different. That seems lobe plaster.
Q. Do you also observe that the line of the
original piece of sculpture or design is carried
out across the fracture in this?
A. Yes, sir ; the altar.
Q. Is this as it came from the hands of the re-
pairer of the British Museum?
A. It is exactly as it came from his bands.
Q. Look at the picture now shown you in
Doell and say whether that is the correct repre-
sentation of it as it was found in Cyprus?
A. Yes, sir ; it is exactly as it was found.
Q. Where did this thing come from?
A. Fiom Golgos ; from the temple.
Mr. Bangs: By repairer you mean Mr. Ready;
do you?
Mr. Choate: I mean the repairer of the British
Museum, whoever he was?
Mr. Bangs: Is that what the witness says ?
Mr. Choate: I so understood him.
Q. (By Mr. Bangs.) Did Mr. Robert Ready put
that thing in its present condition?
A. It has always been so to my knowledge ;
never been touched by anybody.
Q. Did you receive it from him?
A. I received it from the plaintiff.
(2246) Q. And he told you that Robert Ready
had done that?
A. He told me that he had it done by the
British Museum for the purpose of taking a cast,
and then Mr. Ready told me that he did it him-
self.
Q. Did Mr. Ready tell you that he did it for
the purpose of taking a cast?
A. Mo, sir; I had authorized the British
Museum to get casts of these things; and I wan-
ted to have it in order to take casts for the British
Museum.
Q. (By Mr. Choate.) Now, what was the
effect of the bathing besides the removal of the
addition of plaster that had been applied by
Gehlen?
A. Had the effect of removing also the incrus-
tation of matter which on some of the objects had
remained, and which could not be removed
easily without being soaked in water.
Q. Did water in all cases remove that?
A. Not in all cases.
Q. Or the whole of it?
A. Not the whole of it.
Q. Will you please explain to the jury what
that incrustation was, and if you can show them
any specimens of it so that they may understand
it, do so?
A. I have some. I believe there are some in
court now. There is a big head and a cup which
have the incrustation to-day after having been
put in the bath, after having tried to remove it
in every possible way, and it is still the incrusta-
tion over it, and if you try to remove it you take
the surface of the stone with it.
Q. What do you understand that surface of in-
crustation to be besides dirt?
A. It is a composition of what I believe to be
lime, but I am not sure as I am not a judge.
(2247) Q. Formed in the course of centuries
on these objects?
A. It is a triculation through of water, I be-
lieve .
Q. Will you look at this illustration in Colvin
and see if it is his picture of the slab just shown
you after repair?
A. Yes, sir; exactly.
Q. That was taken in London; was it?
A. Yes, sir.
Offered in evidence by defendant and marked
Exhibit 184, this date.
Q. What effect upon the general appearance
of the statues as exhibited did this cleansing in
the bath produce?
A. It makes them look ,a little whiter, prob-
ably, than the stone originally was; but in time
they get the same color again.
Q. Does this account for the whiter appearance
of the objects exhibited in Central Park than
they appeared to have in Fourteenth Street?
A. I don’t think there is any material difference
between the color now and what it was in Four-
teenth Street.
Q. But 1 mean the cleanliness and brightness?
A. Oh, yes, sir; that is the reason.
Q. Is it true that the exhibition as presented
now is of entirely new objects?
A. New objects.
Q. That they look new?
A. That dep tnds upon what person says so. I
should say certainly not.
(22474) Q. Are there not many discolorations
very frequent upon the objects still?
A. The collection has more different hues of
color, more different quality, maiance, different
shade of colors on the stone, than anybody has
any idea of, only it requires some intelligent per-
son and not a superficial one to see ’who goes
there and looks at the collection. There are
changes entirely black if a person will only take
the trouble of seeing them.
Q. Where did this head now shown you come
from (503)?
A. That is not the head that I want to show.
That was also a head of Golgos, but it is not the
head of the man that has the incrustation on it.
It is a head of a woman that I wish to show.
Q. Have you any idea how long this incrusta-
tion is in forming?
A. I have no idea; I could not form an idea
upon it; it must have been many hundreds of
years.
Q. It is something entirely distinct from mere
earth and what we call earth and dust?
A. Quite so.
Q. To what thickness have you seen on any of
the objects this incrustation?
A. 1 could not state exactly, but that head will
exactly show the thickness of it, (referring to
504).
Q. The lines of the design almost are des-
troyed ?
A. That portion has been cleaned and the sur-
face has been nearly spoiled, and this part I
ordered not to be touched. All that is incrusta-
tion which cannot be got off.
(2248) Q. Well, it is at least a quarter of an
inch thick there ?
A. Yes, some places, and that has been through
baths, and washing, and scraping, and every-
thing else, and yet it remains there.
Q. (By Mr. Bangs.) Now, would you have any
objection to taking your penknife and cutting
some off?
A. No, sir.
Q. Suppose you try it?
A. Yes, sir; I will do so if somebody will give
me a knife. (Witness scrapes off some incrusta-
tion with knife before jury.) You see that is
the incrustation—that is the pure incrustation.
Q. (By a Juror.) Wouldn’t a wire brush take
it off?
A. No, sir; that has been done so, but it
wouldn’t take it off.
Q. (By Mr. Choate.) You may state in detail
what processes this head now produced by you
has been put through with a view of removing
this incrustation?
A. I suppose that the head remained about
over a month in a bath before they were able to
remove it, and it has never been able to be re-
moved; there is a quantity in front; Mr. Story,
the sculptor, has been trying to remove it, and
could not; there are other pieces on which it
cannot be removed.
Q. (By a Juror.) Was it all encrusted?
A. It was all entirely covered with incrusta-