DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0017
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
11
14436. In the case of a road through the estate of a
zamindar, is the grant in respect of that road ever
handed over to the zamindar to spend himself ?—
Practically never, unless he happens to be an indigo
planter.
14437. Would it not be a good thing to extend such
a system, if you could find the men ?—Finding the men
is the difficulty, and, of course, there are other
difficulties connected with a system of that kind.
Various obstacles are put in the way. It has been
tried in special cases. I know of cases in a good many
districts where it has been tried, but only with regard
to selected men ; it is done largely in planting .districts
where the owners or managers of indigo concerns or
tea-gardens undertake to repair their own roads.
14438. Would you advocate an extension of that
system ?—I think the advisability of it is sufficiently
recognised already, wherever a suitable agency is
forthcoming.
14439. With regard to village panchayats, are they
elected or are they nominated by the Government ?
—They are nominated on the spot; an officer goes
round and makes a selection, and we try as far as
possible to obtain representative people.
14440. Would you entrust the carrying out of local
works in a village to the existing panchayats ?—I think
it would be difficult to do so.
14441. Would not the panchayat be able to carry the
help of the village with them in such a work as con-
structing a tank, for instance?—I do not think it
would be easy for them unless they were persons with
considerable influence, such as a zamindar, or a
zamindar’s agent.
14442. Does it not often happen with regard to
transfers that if a man comes back from leave and is
sent to an unpopular district, though a senior man he
claims to be removed because of his seniority to a
better district ?—-There have been at times cases of the
sort, but not recently.
14443. Would it be well if an attempt were made to
equalise districts, and, as far as possible, to assimilate
the length of service in healthy and unhealthy districts
amongst officers ?—Yes, I think that would be de-
sirable. I think there ought to be some compensation
for having to serve a great length of time in an
unhealthy or unpopular district.
14444. With regard to the Under-Secretary, it has
been suggested that all the work done by him alone
without reference to the Secretary should be handed
over to the Commissioner, or to some inferior officer ;
would that be possible ?—It would be possible to
delegate to other authorities the power to dispose of
cases which the Under-Secretary disposes of now, but
the Under-Secretary does an immense amount of work
besides disposing of cases. He has for example to see
that all cases are properly presented and to pass many
of the drafts based on the orders of higher authority.
14445. Is the Under-Secretary generally chosen for
his special ability from among the junior officers?—
Yes.
14446. What would you say as to the appointment
of a permanent Under-Secretary ?—I do not think it
would be a success as a rule.
14447. The work performed by the Under-Secretary
is not work which calls for any special ability ?—I
think it does ; and it needs first-hand knowledge of
work in the districts. I think a Civilian would usually
do the work much better.
14448. You would not approve of any change ?—
Not as a general rule, but there may be exceptional
cases.
14449. With regard to the Board of Revenue, you
have described the work under the new system inaugu-
rated in Bengal, and, as I understand, the Board of
Revenue is now brought into more immediate contact
with the Lieutenant-Governor ?—But only as advisers ;
there is no attempt to divide the control.
14450. The next step would be to make them his
colleagues?—No ; there is an essential difference
between that and the^aresent system.
14451. Would it not strengthen the Government if
you were to associate those two members with the
Lieutenant-Governor, so that any action taken should
33263
be their joint action?—I think with a Governor in
Council the different Members of the Council dispose
of a great bulk of the work without its being seen by
the Governor himself.
14452. But it issues with the authority of the
Government ?—It issues with the authority of the
Government, but there is a divided responsibility.
14453. At any rate it would obviate a great many
official references?—The Board would not have to take
the Lieutenant-Governor’s orders, and the present
members of the Board, who would then be Members of
the Council, would dispose of matters instead of
submitting them to the Lieutenant-Governor, but I see
no advantage in this. The saving in time would be
only one day, and I think it is desirable that the
Lieutenant-Governor should see everything and dispose
of it himself.
14454. As a matter of fact many things do not go
before the Lieutenant - Governor ?—All important
things go before the Lieutenant-Governor ; all cases in
which it is proposed to over-rule a Commissioner or a
Head of a Department go to him ; and all letters to
and from the Government of India are seen by him.
14455. (Mr. Dutt.) If the members of the Board
were made colleagues of the Lieutenant-Governor, all
important matters would be attended to by the three ?
—Very important matters would.
14456. Would orders in those very important matters
be passed by the Government as a whole ?—No doubt.
14457. Therefore in that respect would not the
Government be somewhat strengthened ?—I do not
think it would necessarily mean that the Government
would be strengthened. The Lieutenant-Governor is
the responsible authority, and he always has the opinion
of the Board before passing any orders.
14458. But still the orders at present are his own?—
Yes.
14459. While, under my proposal, the orders would
be the orders of three Members ?—This might resolve
itself into the orders of one, because there might be a
conflict of opinion.
14460. In that case it would be a majority of the
three Members which would decide ?—Quite so, but
the majority would consist of one, and it might happen
that the opinion of a junior Member would in that
case prevail.
14461. That is to say if he agreed with the Lieu-
tenant-Governor ?— Whether he agreed with the
Lieutenant-Governor or not ; the latter might be in a
minority against the Members of the Board.
14462. But the majority would have to agree?—Two
out of three, of course, would agree.
14463. You would allow the Local Government to
give a liberal interpretation to the rules laid down, the
Accountant-General being told that he must not inter-
fere if a case was such that the Government of India
would be likely to support the Local Government in
any interpretation they might have put upon the rules ?
How would that be carried out ? If the rules are there,
and if the Accountant-General is there to interpret the
rules, he is bound to interpret them as strictly as he
possibly can ?—There are a great many rules, but they
cannot be framed so as to cover all cases. The Local
Government at present has no power to make an ex-
ception ; but if a reference is made to the Government
of India, very often a thing is allowed as a matter of
course ; the Accountant-General knows from his ex-
perience that the Government of India is likely to
deal with a particular case in a particular way, and if
he thinks the order proposed by the Local Government
is one which would under the present system be
sanctioned by the Government of India, he would not
interfere.
14464. Would the Accountant-General, as Ac-
countant-General, be justified in passing over these
exceptions ?—He would be justified in carrying out
the orders of the Government of India, and if the
Government of India gave him instructions on those
lines he would be justified in carrying them out.
14465. Would a schedule have to be made of such
points ?—I think it might very well be left to his
discretion, because he would have been trained in the
department, and know the principles underlying the
rules.
B 2
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Hee., 1907.
11
14436. In the case of a road through the estate of a
zamindar, is the grant in respect of that road ever
handed over to the zamindar to spend himself ?—
Practically never, unless he happens to be an indigo
planter.
14437. Would it not be a good thing to extend such
a system, if you could find the men ?—Finding the men
is the difficulty, and, of course, there are other
difficulties connected with a system of that kind.
Various obstacles are put in the way. It has been
tried in special cases. I know of cases in a good many
districts where it has been tried, but only with regard
to selected men ; it is done largely in planting .districts
where the owners or managers of indigo concerns or
tea-gardens undertake to repair their own roads.
14438. Would you advocate an extension of that
system ?—I think the advisability of it is sufficiently
recognised already, wherever a suitable agency is
forthcoming.
14439. With regard to village panchayats, are they
elected or are they nominated by the Government ?
—They are nominated on the spot; an officer goes
round and makes a selection, and we try as far as
possible to obtain representative people.
14440. Would you entrust the carrying out of local
works in a village to the existing panchayats ?—I think
it would be difficult to do so.
14441. Would not the panchayat be able to carry the
help of the village with them in such a work as con-
structing a tank, for instance?—I do not think it
would be easy for them unless they were persons with
considerable influence, such as a zamindar, or a
zamindar’s agent.
14442. Does it not often happen with regard to
transfers that if a man comes back from leave and is
sent to an unpopular district, though a senior man he
claims to be removed because of his seniority to a
better district ?—-There have been at times cases of the
sort, but not recently.
14443. Would it be well if an attempt were made to
equalise districts, and, as far as possible, to assimilate
the length of service in healthy and unhealthy districts
amongst officers ?—Yes, I think that would be de-
sirable. I think there ought to be some compensation
for having to serve a great length of time in an
unhealthy or unpopular district.
14444. With regard to the Under-Secretary, it has
been suggested that all the work done by him alone
without reference to the Secretary should be handed
over to the Commissioner, or to some inferior officer ;
would that be possible ?—It would be possible to
delegate to other authorities the power to dispose of
cases which the Under-Secretary disposes of now, but
the Under-Secretary does an immense amount of work
besides disposing of cases. He has for example to see
that all cases are properly presented and to pass many
of the drafts based on the orders of higher authority.
14445. Is the Under-Secretary generally chosen for
his special ability from among the junior officers?—
Yes.
14446. What would you say as to the appointment
of a permanent Under-Secretary ?—I do not think it
would be a success as a rule.
14447. The work performed by the Under-Secretary
is not work which calls for any special ability ?—I
think it does ; and it needs first-hand knowledge of
work in the districts. I think a Civilian would usually
do the work much better.
14448. You would not approve of any change ?—
Not as a general rule, but there may be exceptional
cases.
14449. With regard to the Board of Revenue, you
have described the work under the new system inaugu-
rated in Bengal, and, as I understand, the Board of
Revenue is now brought into more immediate contact
with the Lieutenant-Governor ?—But only as advisers ;
there is no attempt to divide the control.
14450. The next step would be to make them his
colleagues?—No ; there is an essential difference
between that and the^aresent system.
14451. Would it not strengthen the Government if
you were to associate those two members with the
Lieutenant-Governor, so that any action taken should
33263
be their joint action?—I think with a Governor in
Council the different Members of the Council dispose
of a great bulk of the work without its being seen by
the Governor himself.
14452. But it issues with the authority of the
Government ?—It issues with the authority of the
Government, but there is a divided responsibility.
14453. At any rate it would obviate a great many
official references?—The Board would not have to take
the Lieutenant-Governor’s orders, and the present
members of the Board, who would then be Members of
the Council, would dispose of matters instead of
submitting them to the Lieutenant-Governor, but I see
no advantage in this. The saving in time would be
only one day, and I think it is desirable that the
Lieutenant-Governor should see everything and dispose
of it himself.
14454. As a matter of fact many things do not go
before the Lieutenant - Governor ?—All important
things go before the Lieutenant-Governor ; all cases in
which it is proposed to over-rule a Commissioner or a
Head of a Department go to him ; and all letters to
and from the Government of India are seen by him.
14455. (Mr. Dutt.) If the members of the Board
were made colleagues of the Lieutenant-Governor, all
important matters would be attended to by the three ?
—Very important matters would.
14456. Would orders in those very important matters
be passed by the Government as a whole ?—No doubt.
14457. Therefore in that respect would not the
Government be somewhat strengthened ?—I do not
think it would necessarily mean that the Government
would be strengthened. The Lieutenant-Governor is
the responsible authority, and he always has the opinion
of the Board before passing any orders.
14458. But still the orders at present are his own?—
Yes.
14459. While, under my proposal, the orders would
be the orders of three Members ?—This might resolve
itself into the orders of one, because there might be a
conflict of opinion.
14460. In that case it would be a majority of the
three Members which would decide ?—Quite so, but
the majority would consist of one, and it might happen
that the opinion of a junior Member would in that
case prevail.
14461. That is to say if he agreed with the Lieu-
tenant-Governor ?— Whether he agreed with the
Lieutenant-Governor or not ; the latter might be in a
minority against the Members of the Board.
14462. But the majority would have to agree?—Two
out of three, of course, would agree.
14463. You would allow the Local Government to
give a liberal interpretation to the rules laid down, the
Accountant-General being told that he must not inter-
fere if a case was such that the Government of India
would be likely to support the Local Government in
any interpretation they might have put upon the rules ?
How would that be carried out ? If the rules are there,
and if the Accountant-General is there to interpret the
rules, he is bound to interpret them as strictly as he
possibly can ?—There are a great many rules, but they
cannot be framed so as to cover all cases. The Local
Government at present has no power to make an ex-
ception ; but if a reference is made to the Government
of India, very often a thing is allowed as a matter of
course ; the Accountant-General knows from his ex-
perience that the Government of India is likely to
deal with a particular case in a particular way, and if
he thinks the order proposed by the Local Government
is one which would under the present system be
sanctioned by the Government of India, he would not
interfere.
14464. Would the Accountant-General, as Ac-
countant-General, be justified in passing over these
exceptions ?—He would be justified in carrying out
the orders of the Government of India, and if the
Government of India gave him instructions on those
lines he would be justified in carrying them out.
14465. Would a schedule have to be made of such
points ?—I think it might very well be left to his
discretion, because he would have been trained in the
department, and know the principles underlying the
rules.
B 2
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Hee., 1907.