DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0018
12
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Dec., 1907.
14466. But when rules are framed, the Accountant-
General, as Accountant-General, would be bound to
see that they were carried out strictly ?—It would
depend upon the instructions given him. He is quite
right at present in insisting on a reference to the
Government of India, but if a rule was laid down
giving the Local Government a certain latitude, he
would only insist upon references when he thought
that the Local Government was going too far.
14467. It would be rather difficult to allow him
latitude in such matters ?—Of course it would have to
be left to his discretion.
14468. Do you say that it would not be wise to
provide for delegation of legal powers which have
formed the subject of debate in Council, except by an
amending Act ?—I think this procedure should be
adapted only in cases where the question as to who
should exercise those powers has formed the subject
of animated discussion when the bill was passing
through Council.
14469. Would it not be difficult to find out in what
cases a point has been the subject of animated dis-
cussion in Council ?—The proceedings of the Council
would show.
14470. Would you refer to the proceedings of the
Council to make a distinction of that nature ?—If a
question arose, one of the points to ascertain would be
whether the question as to what authority should
exercise the power had, or had not, formed the subject
of discussion in the Council, and if it had, I would say
“ This is not a case which ought to be dealt with under
the general delegating Act,” or vice versa.
14471. In cases where the power was reserved to
Government there would not be any occasion for
discussion ?—Yes, that is so.
14472. If the Government propose that the power
should be kept in its own hands it would not form the
subject of discussion at all; under those circumstances
would you not rather recommend that in every case, if
a delegation was intended, it should be done by an
amending Act ?—No, I would not go so far as that,
because that, gives a lot of trouble. I think some other
safeguard might be found. I think it would probably
meet the difficulty if no delegation was allowed until
previous publication of the intention of Government
to delegate, and if no delegation were allowed except
with the sanction of the authority superior to the
authority proposing to make the delegation.
14473. But that would not secure a debate in
Council ?—It would not secure a debate in Council,
but it would secure the ascertainment of public
opinion.
14474. Would it minimise labour if a schedule of
the powers proposed to be delegated were prepared,
which, at the same time, would give an opportunity of
raising a debate with regard to anything mentioned in
the schedule ?—That would be a circuitous method ;
and would involve delay. Some Act containing powers
of delegation is necessary, and in future I think it
might be a good thing if the power to delegate were
expressly provided for in the body of the Act. This
is already done sometimes, as in the case of the Epi-
demic Diseases Act. I think delegation should be
made with a certain amount of caution under a general
delegating Act, but I think notification would meet
the case. If Government announced an intention
to delegate in the Gazette, I think that would he a
sufficient safeguard. I assume, of course, that Govern-
ment would listen to hostile representation. If public
opinion was strongly adverse to the proposed delega-
tion, Government should either abandon the proposal
or make it the subject of an amending Act.
14475. With regard to appeals to the Government
of India, would you only give the right of appeal to an
officer drawing Rs. 500 or upwards ?—Yes.
14476. That would exclude Deputy Collectors?—I
would put men in graded services in which the maxi-
mum pay was more than Rs. 500 in the same category
as men drawing Rs. 500 and upwards.
14477. There may be Services where the men get up
to a maximum of Rs. 200 or Rs. 300, or even Rs. 401 ?
—Yes.
14478. In those cases, if a man is dismissed by the
Government of Bengal, would you deny him a right of
appeal ?—I should be prepared to allow an appeal in
the case of all Gazetted Officers, and all officers whose
maximum pay is Rs. 500, or upwards.
14479. Would it save much trouble if your scheme
were carried out ?—The number of appeals is small,
but they give a very great deal of trouble.
14480. On the whole would it not give a greater
sense of security to Government officials if you left
the rules untouched in this respect ?—As a general
rule the authority which should have power to appoint,
has power to dismiss ; and as we have asked for power
to make appointments up to Rs. 500,1 think we should
have the same powers in regard to dismissal.
14481. With regard to the right of appeal to the
Local Government, do you propose any change at all ?
—No.
14482. Has it been the practice for a number of
years to invite Indian gentlemen to annual conferences ?
—It has been the practice for the past two years.
14483. Is it intended to continue the practice?—
Yes. I may add that the non-official Members of
Council are now invited informally to discuss t'>e
budget before it is framed.
14484. Are you of opinion that District Officers
should consult leading men of their districts, and
would you also recommend a kind of periodical con-
ference of the District Officer with the leading gentle-
men of his district, in order to ascertain their views ?
—I should prefer to begin by insisting strongly on the
necessity of consulting Indian gentlemen regarding all
important matters, and I think certainly it would be a
very good thing to ask them periodically to come in,
and discuss important matters ; if something could be
done towards developing more social intercourse than
has existed up to now, it would be a move in the right
direction. The advantages would be two-fold ; not
only would it give the Government more correct infor-
mation with regard to native feeling, but it would also
tend to remove misunderstanding as to the objects of
the Government.
14485. Would you have any strong objection to
laying it down that such a conference should be held
at least once a year?—No, I would have no great ob-
jection, but I think it is as well to go slowly at first
and lay down no fixed rules.
14486. Supposing some of the gentlemen invited to.
these conferences had any proposals or representations
to make, would you allow them to make them after
giving previous notice ?—I would recognise at any
time the right of an influential person to bring to
notice proposals he wishes to put forward. Any man
of position should have free access to, and receive
sympathetic attention from, the District Officer.
14487. Do you say that the functions of the chauki-
dari panchayats are limited to raising money ?—That
is the object with which they are first appointed, but
they have recently been given a good deal of control
over the chaukidars
14488. You have no objection to adding cautiously
to their functions ?—-Quite so, but I should prefer to
see any big experiment conducted in some province
where there is already an indigenous village com-
munity.
14489. Have you any objection to having that ex-
periment made in certain selected areas in Bengal
which might be called advanced districts?—I would
prefer to say in selected unions.
14490. Would you propose the appointment of a
Special Officer to deal with the matter ?—Certainly, I
think that is essential.
14491. In cases of officers of the Indian Civil Ser-
vice who are considered unfit for higher appointment,
you would propose that they should be compelled to
retire on such pension as they may have earned ; would
you extend that rule to other Services —Of course, it
would get rid of a certain number of inefficient people,
but I should rather hesitate to lay down any hard-and-
fast rule for the Provincial and Subordinate Services,
because, amongst other things, one sees so much diver-
gence of opinion expressed regarding the same officer.
The fitness of a man in the position of a Collector of
a district is a matter regarding!;, which there can be
little room for doubt, but a Deputy Magistrate may
possibly be judged upon the results of a particular
case.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Dec., 1907.
14466. But when rules are framed, the Accountant-
General, as Accountant-General, would be bound to
see that they were carried out strictly ?—It would
depend upon the instructions given him. He is quite
right at present in insisting on a reference to the
Government of India, but if a rule was laid down
giving the Local Government a certain latitude, he
would only insist upon references when he thought
that the Local Government was going too far.
14467. It would be rather difficult to allow him
latitude in such matters ?—Of course it would have to
be left to his discretion.
14468. Do you say that it would not be wise to
provide for delegation of legal powers which have
formed the subject of debate in Council, except by an
amending Act ?—I think this procedure should be
adapted only in cases where the question as to who
should exercise those powers has formed the subject
of animated discussion when the bill was passing
through Council.
14469. Would it not be difficult to find out in what
cases a point has been the subject of animated dis-
cussion in Council ?—The proceedings of the Council
would show.
14470. Would you refer to the proceedings of the
Council to make a distinction of that nature ?—If a
question arose, one of the points to ascertain would be
whether the question as to what authority should
exercise the power had, or had not, formed the subject
of discussion in the Council, and if it had, I would say
“ This is not a case which ought to be dealt with under
the general delegating Act,” or vice versa.
14471. In cases where the power was reserved to
Government there would not be any occasion for
discussion ?—Yes, that is so.
14472. If the Government propose that the power
should be kept in its own hands it would not form the
subject of discussion at all; under those circumstances
would you not rather recommend that in every case, if
a delegation was intended, it should be done by an
amending Act ?—No, I would not go so far as that,
because that, gives a lot of trouble. I think some other
safeguard might be found. I think it would probably
meet the difficulty if no delegation was allowed until
previous publication of the intention of Government
to delegate, and if no delegation were allowed except
with the sanction of the authority superior to the
authority proposing to make the delegation.
14473. But that would not secure a debate in
Council ?—It would not secure a debate in Council,
but it would secure the ascertainment of public
opinion.
14474. Would it minimise labour if a schedule of
the powers proposed to be delegated were prepared,
which, at the same time, would give an opportunity of
raising a debate with regard to anything mentioned in
the schedule ?—That would be a circuitous method ;
and would involve delay. Some Act containing powers
of delegation is necessary, and in future I think it
might be a good thing if the power to delegate were
expressly provided for in the body of the Act. This
is already done sometimes, as in the case of the Epi-
demic Diseases Act. I think delegation should be
made with a certain amount of caution under a general
delegating Act, but I think notification would meet
the case. If Government announced an intention
to delegate in the Gazette, I think that would he a
sufficient safeguard. I assume, of course, that Govern-
ment would listen to hostile representation. If public
opinion was strongly adverse to the proposed delega-
tion, Government should either abandon the proposal
or make it the subject of an amending Act.
14475. With regard to appeals to the Government
of India, would you only give the right of appeal to an
officer drawing Rs. 500 or upwards ?—Yes.
14476. That would exclude Deputy Collectors?—I
would put men in graded services in which the maxi-
mum pay was more than Rs. 500 in the same category
as men drawing Rs. 500 and upwards.
14477. There may be Services where the men get up
to a maximum of Rs. 200 or Rs. 300, or even Rs. 401 ?
—Yes.
14478. In those cases, if a man is dismissed by the
Government of Bengal, would you deny him a right of
appeal ?—I should be prepared to allow an appeal in
the case of all Gazetted Officers, and all officers whose
maximum pay is Rs. 500, or upwards.
14479. Would it save much trouble if your scheme
were carried out ?—The number of appeals is small,
but they give a very great deal of trouble.
14480. On the whole would it not give a greater
sense of security to Government officials if you left
the rules untouched in this respect ?—As a general
rule the authority which should have power to appoint,
has power to dismiss ; and as we have asked for power
to make appointments up to Rs. 500,1 think we should
have the same powers in regard to dismissal.
14481. With regard to the right of appeal to the
Local Government, do you propose any change at all ?
—No.
14482. Has it been the practice for a number of
years to invite Indian gentlemen to annual conferences ?
—It has been the practice for the past two years.
14483. Is it intended to continue the practice?—
Yes. I may add that the non-official Members of
Council are now invited informally to discuss t'>e
budget before it is framed.
14484. Are you of opinion that District Officers
should consult leading men of their districts, and
would you also recommend a kind of periodical con-
ference of the District Officer with the leading gentle-
men of his district, in order to ascertain their views ?
—I should prefer to begin by insisting strongly on the
necessity of consulting Indian gentlemen regarding all
important matters, and I think certainly it would be a
very good thing to ask them periodically to come in,
and discuss important matters ; if something could be
done towards developing more social intercourse than
has existed up to now, it would be a move in the right
direction. The advantages would be two-fold ; not
only would it give the Government more correct infor-
mation with regard to native feeling, but it would also
tend to remove misunderstanding as to the objects of
the Government.
14485. Would you have any strong objection to
laying it down that such a conference should be held
at least once a year?—No, I would have no great ob-
jection, but I think it is as well to go slowly at first
and lay down no fixed rules.
14486. Supposing some of the gentlemen invited to.
these conferences had any proposals or representations
to make, would you allow them to make them after
giving previous notice ?—I would recognise at any
time the right of an influential person to bring to
notice proposals he wishes to put forward. Any man
of position should have free access to, and receive
sympathetic attention from, the District Officer.
14487. Do you say that the functions of the chauki-
dari panchayats are limited to raising money ?—That
is the object with which they are first appointed, but
they have recently been given a good deal of control
over the chaukidars
14488. You have no objection to adding cautiously
to their functions ?—-Quite so, but I should prefer to
see any big experiment conducted in some province
where there is already an indigenous village com-
munity.
14489. Have you any objection to having that ex-
periment made in certain selected areas in Bengal
which might be called advanced districts?—I would
prefer to say in selected unions.
14490. Would you propose the appointment of a
Special Officer to deal with the matter ?—Certainly, I
think that is essential.
14491. In cases of officers of the Indian Civil Ser-
vice who are considered unfit for higher appointment,
you would propose that they should be compelled to
retire on such pension as they may have earned ; would
you extend that rule to other Services —Of course, it
would get rid of a certain number of inefficient people,
but I should rather hesitate to lay down any hard-and-
fast rule for the Provincial and Subordinate Services,
because, amongst other things, one sees so much diver-
gence of opinion expressed regarding the same officer.
The fitness of a man in the position of a Collector of
a district is a matter regarding!;, which there can be
little room for doubt, but a Deputy Magistrate may
possibly be judged upon the results of a particular
case.