DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0023
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
17
14598. What is to prevent you seeking the advice of
any one on any matter ?—There is no harm, and it is
already sometimes done, but I would not have a
regular rule laid down that it should be done.
14599. You may be overruled as to details on the
advice of the Inspector General, but is it not more likely
you would be overruled as to details if there were no
Inspector-General acquainted with the details of the
province, and the matter went to some one who did
not know the province ?—The latter would probably
not have the time to go into detail which the specialist
could devote to it.
14600. Have you been overruled more since there
have been Inspectors-General than you were before ?—
I have not sufficient experience to enable me to say,
but I think the tendency is probably in that direction.
14601. As regards listed appointments, did you say
that you could not ordinarily fill appointments that
were not listed by Deputy-Collectors ?—Yes.
14602. Is the reason that the Act of Parliament,
subject to certain exceptions, vests the appointments
in the Indian Civil Service ?—Yes.
14603. Are you of opinion that this Act should not
be departed from save in exceptional cases, and for
short vacancies ?—I was only dealing with the question
of expediency without any reference to existing law.
14604. But you recognise the distinction between a
listed appointment and one which is not listed ?—Yes.
14605. The Lieutenant-Governor has not full power
over the appointment of members of the Board of
Revenue ?—He has to get sanction.
14606. Is that under one of the local laws ?—Yes ; .
he has to go for sanction to the Government of India.
I remember only one ease in which there was any
interference.
14607. With regard to the system of dealing with
the Board’s work, have you not a double office doing
the same work ?—I think there has been a good result
from the double office, because you have an independent
examination of the case, and very often the Govern-
ment office is able to look up precedents and things
which are not open to the Board, so that it corrects
the Board, so to speak. It does seem to be redundancy,
but at the same time I think'it has its. ad vantages.
14608. As I understand, a matter goes from the
Board’s clerks to the Government clerks ; then from
the Government clerks to the Board’s Secretary ; then
from the Board’s Secretary to you, skipping the
Vnder-Secretary ?—Yes.
14609. And you can, if you like, call upon your
clerks again to give you information ?—I could, but I
usually deal with the Board’s Secretary.
14610. You say more precedents would be available,
but if the Board’s separate office were abolished they
would have the precedents in the Secretariat here ?—
The Board’s office could not be abolished because a
great part of their work is concerned with the revenue
administration of the country, as to which their
authority is final and no reference is made to
Government.
14611. But they could still deal with that as a
branch of the Government Secretariat ?—I should
prefer to see the present system continued, for some
years longer, at any rate.
14612. But is it necessary to keep on .your Under-
secretary ?—My Under-Secretary still has plenty to do.
He does not have to do with the Revenue Department,
except in respect of famine and forest; but he has to
work up all cases in the Political, including the Police
and Appointment Departments. This is quite enough
for one man.
14613. You do not think the reduction sufficient to
warrant dispensing with the Under-Secretary ?—No ;
I think he is still over-worked.
14614. In regard to the chaukidari panchayat system
and an extension of it, do I understand you to say
that before giving further powers you want to see how
the system works in other provinces ?—Yes, before
widely extending the powers.
14615. Is there any Qther like system in existence ?
—There is no similar system, but there are village
agencies in other provinces.
14616. One is a natural village, and yours is an
artificial agglomeration of villages ?—Yes, therefore I
33263
would not give any more powers to the people in
charge of this artificial agglomeration of villages until
we see how the people are able to exercise those powers
where there is a natural system.
14617. Would that afford you any evidence?—It
might afford negative evidence at any rate.
14618. When you make a new departure, is it not
always better to proceed by way of experiment in
small areas ?—Yes, I think so.
14619. On what grounds do you allege that Bengal
is worse off than other provinces in respect of
establishment?—We have only six Commissioners for
our 54 millions, as compared with nine Commissioners
for 45 or 50 millions in the United Provinces.
14620. But you have hardly any revenue work to do
compared with that of the United Provinces?—We
have an enormous amount of revenue work to do, but
it is of a different kind ; our tauzi roll, for instance,
involves separate accounts and an immense amount of
trouble ; we have numerous petty Government estates
in every district ; there are 2,000 altogether mainly on
the banks of the rivers ; they are continually being
washed away and thrown up again ; then there are
partitions, land registration, revenue sales, Court of
Wards work, etc.
14621. Surely you have no work in connection with
remissions and reassessments ?—No, but we have other
things instead.
14622. You spoke of the desirability of having more
Joint-Magistrates; your Joint-Magistrate, I under-
stand, is a sort of personal assistant to the Collector,
or District Magistrate, is he not ?—Where we have a
J oint-Magistrate he is practically in independent charge
of all the criminal work. He receives complaints,
disposes of police reports, looks after the conduct of
cases before the subordinate Magistrates, and sees
their registers every week.
14623. But he has no independent territorial charge ?
—No, but he has well recognised functions.
14624. Would you keep the headquarters sub-
division at its present size, putting it under the Joint-
Magistrate as a Sub-Divisional Officer?—I think I
would keep it at its present size as a rule.
14625. And convert the Joint-Magistrate intb a Sub-
Divisional Officer?—Where there is a Joint-Magistrate
he might be in charge of the headquarters sub-division,
but we should never have, enough Joint-Magistrates to
go round ; we have only asked for Joint-Magistrates in
12 or 14 of the biggest districts.
14626. Do you see any objection to the system in
force in Madras being applied to Bengal ?—It would
be very difficult to have a wholesale re-arrangement
of the existing administrative arrangements.
14627. Have you certain sub-divisions allotted to
Civilians and others to Deputy Collectors ?—Yes.
14628. With regard to the point that you have no
intermediate officers, might you not increase the
number of your Sub-Deputy Collectors, if necessary,
and give them charge of the areas covered, say, by a
couple of thanas ?—That would mean a large increase
of establishment.
14629. You have them now at sub-divisional head-
quarters ?—But every sub-divisional headquarters has
not a Sub-Deputy Collector.
14630. Are there not enough Sub-Deputy Collectors
to go round ?—Not when you consider the number
needed for special work such as settlement, and so
forth.
14631. I put it to you as a possible solution, though
it might involve expenditure ; do you see any advantage
or disadvantage in it ?—I am not sure whether there
would be enough work for them to do.
14632. Would the supervision of the chaukidari
panchayats be part of the duty they would attend to ?
—Yes.
14633. You have these Sub-Deputy Collectors in a
provincial list?—Why should not the Commissioner
appoint them ?—They are appointed mainly on the
recommendation of Commissioners ; each Commis-
sioner sends up his nominations.
14634. Why not go a step further and make the
Commissioners the appointing authority?—We have
other sources of appointment as well ; we get a few
from nominations by Heads of Departments.
C
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Dec., 1907.
17
14598. What is to prevent you seeking the advice of
any one on any matter ?—There is no harm, and it is
already sometimes done, but I would not have a
regular rule laid down that it should be done.
14599. You may be overruled as to details on the
advice of the Inspector General, but is it not more likely
you would be overruled as to details if there were no
Inspector-General acquainted with the details of the
province, and the matter went to some one who did
not know the province ?—The latter would probably
not have the time to go into detail which the specialist
could devote to it.
14600. Have you been overruled more since there
have been Inspectors-General than you were before ?—
I have not sufficient experience to enable me to say,
but I think the tendency is probably in that direction.
14601. As regards listed appointments, did you say
that you could not ordinarily fill appointments that
were not listed by Deputy-Collectors ?—Yes.
14602. Is the reason that the Act of Parliament,
subject to certain exceptions, vests the appointments
in the Indian Civil Service ?—Yes.
14603. Are you of opinion that this Act should not
be departed from save in exceptional cases, and for
short vacancies ?—I was only dealing with the question
of expediency without any reference to existing law.
14604. But you recognise the distinction between a
listed appointment and one which is not listed ?—Yes.
14605. The Lieutenant-Governor has not full power
over the appointment of members of the Board of
Revenue ?—He has to get sanction.
14606. Is that under one of the local laws ?—Yes ; .
he has to go for sanction to the Government of India.
I remember only one ease in which there was any
interference.
14607. With regard to the system of dealing with
the Board’s work, have you not a double office doing
the same work ?—I think there has been a good result
from the double office, because you have an independent
examination of the case, and very often the Govern-
ment office is able to look up precedents and things
which are not open to the Board, so that it corrects
the Board, so to speak. It does seem to be redundancy,
but at the same time I think'it has its. ad vantages.
14608. As I understand, a matter goes from the
Board’s clerks to the Government clerks ; then from
the Government clerks to the Board’s Secretary ; then
from the Board’s Secretary to you, skipping the
Vnder-Secretary ?—Yes.
14609. And you can, if you like, call upon your
clerks again to give you information ?—I could, but I
usually deal with the Board’s Secretary.
14610. You say more precedents would be available,
but if the Board’s separate office were abolished they
would have the precedents in the Secretariat here ?—
The Board’s office could not be abolished because a
great part of their work is concerned with the revenue
administration of the country, as to which their
authority is final and no reference is made to
Government.
14611. But they could still deal with that as a
branch of the Government Secretariat ?—I should
prefer to see the present system continued, for some
years longer, at any rate.
14612. But is it necessary to keep on .your Under-
secretary ?—My Under-Secretary still has plenty to do.
He does not have to do with the Revenue Department,
except in respect of famine and forest; but he has to
work up all cases in the Political, including the Police
and Appointment Departments. This is quite enough
for one man.
14613. You do not think the reduction sufficient to
warrant dispensing with the Under-Secretary ?—No ;
I think he is still over-worked.
14614. In regard to the chaukidari panchayat system
and an extension of it, do I understand you to say
that before giving further powers you want to see how
the system works in other provinces ?—Yes, before
widely extending the powers.
14615. Is there any Qther like system in existence ?
—There is no similar system, but there are village
agencies in other provinces.
14616. One is a natural village, and yours is an
artificial agglomeration of villages ?—Yes, therefore I
33263
would not give any more powers to the people in
charge of this artificial agglomeration of villages until
we see how the people are able to exercise those powers
where there is a natural system.
14617. Would that afford you any evidence?—It
might afford negative evidence at any rate.
14618. When you make a new departure, is it not
always better to proceed by way of experiment in
small areas ?—Yes, I think so.
14619. On what grounds do you allege that Bengal
is worse off than other provinces in respect of
establishment?—We have only six Commissioners for
our 54 millions, as compared with nine Commissioners
for 45 or 50 millions in the United Provinces.
14620. But you have hardly any revenue work to do
compared with that of the United Provinces?—We
have an enormous amount of revenue work to do, but
it is of a different kind ; our tauzi roll, for instance,
involves separate accounts and an immense amount of
trouble ; we have numerous petty Government estates
in every district ; there are 2,000 altogether mainly on
the banks of the rivers ; they are continually being
washed away and thrown up again ; then there are
partitions, land registration, revenue sales, Court of
Wards work, etc.
14621. Surely you have no work in connection with
remissions and reassessments ?—No, but we have other
things instead.
14622. You spoke of the desirability of having more
Joint-Magistrates; your Joint-Magistrate, I under-
stand, is a sort of personal assistant to the Collector,
or District Magistrate, is he not ?—Where we have a
J oint-Magistrate he is practically in independent charge
of all the criminal work. He receives complaints,
disposes of police reports, looks after the conduct of
cases before the subordinate Magistrates, and sees
their registers every week.
14623. But he has no independent territorial charge ?
—No, but he has well recognised functions.
14624. Would you keep the headquarters sub-
division at its present size, putting it under the Joint-
Magistrate as a Sub-Divisional Officer?—I think I
would keep it at its present size as a rule.
14625. And convert the Joint-Magistrate intb a Sub-
Divisional Officer?—Where there is a Joint-Magistrate
he might be in charge of the headquarters sub-division,
but we should never have, enough Joint-Magistrates to
go round ; we have only asked for Joint-Magistrates in
12 or 14 of the biggest districts.
14626. Do you see any objection to the system in
force in Madras being applied to Bengal ?—It would
be very difficult to have a wholesale re-arrangement
of the existing administrative arrangements.
14627. Have you certain sub-divisions allotted to
Civilians and others to Deputy Collectors ?—Yes.
14628. With regard to the point that you have no
intermediate officers, might you not increase the
number of your Sub-Deputy Collectors, if necessary,
and give them charge of the areas covered, say, by a
couple of thanas ?—That would mean a large increase
of establishment.
14629. You have them now at sub-divisional head-
quarters ?—But every sub-divisional headquarters has
not a Sub-Deputy Collector.
14630. Are there not enough Sub-Deputy Collectors
to go round ?—Not when you consider the number
needed for special work such as settlement, and so
forth.
14631. I put it to you as a possible solution, though
it might involve expenditure ; do you see any advantage
or disadvantage in it ?—I am not sure whether there
would be enough work for them to do.
14632. Would the supervision of the chaukidari
panchayats be part of the duty they would attend to ?
—Yes.
14633. You have these Sub-Deputy Collectors in a
provincial list?—Why should not the Commissioner
appoint them ?—They are appointed mainly on the
recommendation of Commissioners ; each Commis-
sioner sends up his nominations.
14634. Why not go a step further and make the
Commissioners the appointing authority?—We have
other sources of appointment as well ; we get a few
from nominations by Heads of Departments.
C
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
27 Dec., 1907.