DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0025
BOYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTEALIZATION.
19
has advised, or will advise, therefore we can at once
give the Local Government final power ? ”—Yes, it
might be so.
14665. And they might in that way become an in-
strument of further decentralization ?—I am not quite
sure on that point ; it might or might not.
14666. You used the word “ inspection,” with regard
to the advisers of the Government of India ; do you
mean inspection, or do you mean study ?—I would go
further than study. Take, for instance, the case of an
experimental farm : 1 think it would be a very good
thing that the Inspector-General of Agriculture should
make an inspection, the result of which he would not
necessarily send to the Government of India, but to
the local Director of Agiiculture for his information.
14667. Then assuming you once permit inspection,
would it be right that the Inspector-General should,
on leaving a province, send a memorandum of
everything he has seen in the province to the
Lieutenant-Governor ?—Yes ; or to the Head of the
Department.
14668. Is it the case that they occasionally take in-
formation past the Local Government, and the first
you hear of it is by letter from the official department
of the Government of India ?—I cannot think of any
case, but I cannot help thinking it might be likely.
14669. The other system suggested would prevent
that ?—Yes, I think so. In fact we have just sug-
gested that in connection with the proposal made by
the Inspector-General of Forests to send a man to
report on our working plans.
14670. Have you not had to deal recently with the
proposals of the Police Commission. You mentioned
a controversy with regard to the beat system in
Calcutta which arose out of the Police Commission
proposals ?—The beat system which we proposed to
introduce was the system recommended by the Police
Commission, and which the Government of India had
previously, more or less, approved of.
14671. And you told the Government of India that
you did not like the alternative scheme ?—We have
not replied to it yet.
14672. Have you had any great difficulty in carrying
out your proposals with reference to the Police Com-
mission ?—No, not generally speaking.
14673. One witness mentioned that certain proposals
with regard to inspectors had been negatived ; that
would be against your principle, and is an illustration
of interference ?—I do not remember the case.
14674. Can you give any illustrations of Acts of
general delegation passed in Bengal ?—I have here
two lists of statutory provisions in force in Bengal
authorizing delegation, and also a list of delegations
made under those Acts.
14675. Are you aware whether the existence of
such provisions, or the use of them, has led to any
public complaints?—No, not to my knowledge.
14676. Supposing you were laying out the area of
Bengal again, what would be your constitution of the
province with regard to the Local Government ?—I
think I should advocate the existing one.
14677. You would have the Board of Revenue plus
the Commissioner ?—Yes.
14678. Do you know that a system of Chief Com-
missionerships has been recently publicly suggested ?
—Yes.
14679. Do you think that a system of six Commis-
sioners with very large powers under the Local
Government would be a good one ?—It is practically
our system now, except that we think the Commis-
sioners might have more powers ; we already have
only six Commissioners for 54,000,000 people.
14680. Would it be a good change in your opinion
to increase the number of your Commissioners, and
simply to absorb the Board of Revenue in the Local
Government ?—I do not think the Board of Revenue
could be done away with ; they correspond on the
revenue side to the High Court on the civil side ; you
must have some central revenue authority, and
zamindars have great faith in the Board of Revenue.
14681. Do you think the Government so constituted
could not deal direct with the Commissioners ?—I do
33263
not think you would have the same continuity as now’
when the two most experienced men in the province
are members of the Board ; I think you would have
the risk of friction and divided responsibility.
14682. What would be your criterion for a division
of functions as between the I.ocal Government and
the officers subordinate to it ?—I think the Local
Government should deal with questions of policy or
principle and other matters of general public import-
ance and leave the subordinate authorities to deal with
the details of local administration and matters of
local interest.
14683. Practically, are you in favour of the principle
of maintaining as much power as possible in the higher
offices ?—-It is very difficult to think of any powers
now exercised by Government, other than those
included in the schedule of proposed delegations,
which could be delegated with advantage and safety ;
you w’ant a certain amount of uniformity of procedure
throughout the province. We have for some years
been engaged in delegating powers which can be safely
delegated.
14684. It was suggested in Burma that the principle
should be to vest powers as low down as possible with
safety ; what do you think as to that ?—I agree.
14685. The difference of attitude would probably
be that you would build up from the bottom instead
of unloading from the top ?—In preparing our
schedule of proposed delegations we examined the
tables of cases disposed of by Under-Secretaries and
the Proceedings of Government for the last three
years and the Acts and rules under which references
to higher authority are now required. We have
proposed to delegate all powers which it is considered
safe to delegate, especially in matters which are found
to involve frequent references under the present
system.
14686. With your present system of working with
the Board of Revenue, how do you provide for a
separate record ; do you duplicate the whole record ?—
No ; if it is an unprinted case it is kept as the Board’s
record, but if it is a printed case, we take out the
papers which would otherwise form the Government
record and print them only.
14687. Will that cause any difficulty, say, twenty
years hence ?—Of course it is a thing that wants
watching. I have found difficulty in some respects
owing to delays, but I think difficulties of that kind
will be avoided as the system settles down.
14688. You have six Commissioners in Bengal: how
far do their charges represent natural linguistic
divisions ?—The Orissa Commissionership is confined
to the Uriya-speaking people ; in Chota Nagpur the
language is chiefly Hindi; in Bihar, where there are
two Commissioners it is Hindi ; and in the Commis-
sionerships of Bengal proper the people speak
Bengali. .
14689. With regard to transfers, it has been
suggested that it would be possible to avoid them in
some small degree by distributing the reserve of
officers. At present the whole reserve is kept in the
lowest grade of Civilians, is it not ?—Yes.
14690. The suggestion was that in order to be able
to provide for leave and a reserve for spec al duties
there should be two or three Collectors in excess of
the number of districts ?—Yes, either that or our
proposal for extra Joint-Magistrates.
14691. Would it be a good thing to have several
extra Collectors ?—I think if you had the extra Joint-
Magistrates, you could do without them.
14692. What is a Sub-Deputy Collector exactly ?—
He was originally intended to be an officer for local
enquir es, but he has gradually developed into a
Magistrate of a subordinate grade, either at district
or subdivisional headquarters; if he is at sub-
divisional headquarters, he generally does treasury
work.
14693. One witness has pointed out the great
hardship to people engaged in petty cases, in getting
their cases disposed of at present ; where does a petty
case come for disposal ?—A great many of them are
tried by the ordinary Magistrates.
14694. If the Sub-Deputy Collector could be
developed into a revenue enquiry officer and residential
C 2
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
21 Dec., 1907.
19
has advised, or will advise, therefore we can at once
give the Local Government final power ? ”—Yes, it
might be so.
14665. And they might in that way become an in-
strument of further decentralization ?—I am not quite
sure on that point ; it might or might not.
14666. You used the word “ inspection,” with regard
to the advisers of the Government of India ; do you
mean inspection, or do you mean study ?—I would go
further than study. Take, for instance, the case of an
experimental farm : 1 think it would be a very good
thing that the Inspector-General of Agriculture should
make an inspection, the result of which he would not
necessarily send to the Government of India, but to
the local Director of Agiiculture for his information.
14667. Then assuming you once permit inspection,
would it be right that the Inspector-General should,
on leaving a province, send a memorandum of
everything he has seen in the province to the
Lieutenant-Governor ?—Yes ; or to the Head of the
Department.
14668. Is it the case that they occasionally take in-
formation past the Local Government, and the first
you hear of it is by letter from the official department
of the Government of India ?—I cannot think of any
case, but I cannot help thinking it might be likely.
14669. The other system suggested would prevent
that ?—Yes, I think so. In fact we have just sug-
gested that in connection with the proposal made by
the Inspector-General of Forests to send a man to
report on our working plans.
14670. Have you not had to deal recently with the
proposals of the Police Commission. You mentioned
a controversy with regard to the beat system in
Calcutta which arose out of the Police Commission
proposals ?—The beat system which we proposed to
introduce was the system recommended by the Police
Commission, and which the Government of India had
previously, more or less, approved of.
14671. And you told the Government of India that
you did not like the alternative scheme ?—We have
not replied to it yet.
14672. Have you had any great difficulty in carrying
out your proposals with reference to the Police Com-
mission ?—No, not generally speaking.
14673. One witness mentioned that certain proposals
with regard to inspectors had been negatived ; that
would be against your principle, and is an illustration
of interference ?—I do not remember the case.
14674. Can you give any illustrations of Acts of
general delegation passed in Bengal ?—I have here
two lists of statutory provisions in force in Bengal
authorizing delegation, and also a list of delegations
made under those Acts.
14675. Are you aware whether the existence of
such provisions, or the use of them, has led to any
public complaints?—No, not to my knowledge.
14676. Supposing you were laying out the area of
Bengal again, what would be your constitution of the
province with regard to the Local Government ?—I
think I should advocate the existing one.
14677. You would have the Board of Revenue plus
the Commissioner ?—Yes.
14678. Do you know that a system of Chief Com-
missionerships has been recently publicly suggested ?
—Yes.
14679. Do you think that a system of six Commis-
sioners with very large powers under the Local
Government would be a good one ?—It is practically
our system now, except that we think the Commis-
sioners might have more powers ; we already have
only six Commissioners for 54,000,000 people.
14680. Would it be a good change in your opinion
to increase the number of your Commissioners, and
simply to absorb the Board of Revenue in the Local
Government ?—I do not think the Board of Revenue
could be done away with ; they correspond on the
revenue side to the High Court on the civil side ; you
must have some central revenue authority, and
zamindars have great faith in the Board of Revenue.
14681. Do you think the Government so constituted
could not deal direct with the Commissioners ?—I do
33263
not think you would have the same continuity as now’
when the two most experienced men in the province
are members of the Board ; I think you would have
the risk of friction and divided responsibility.
14682. What would be your criterion for a division
of functions as between the I.ocal Government and
the officers subordinate to it ?—I think the Local
Government should deal with questions of policy or
principle and other matters of general public import-
ance and leave the subordinate authorities to deal with
the details of local administration and matters of
local interest.
14683. Practically, are you in favour of the principle
of maintaining as much power as possible in the higher
offices ?—-It is very difficult to think of any powers
now exercised by Government, other than those
included in the schedule of proposed delegations,
which could be delegated with advantage and safety ;
you w’ant a certain amount of uniformity of procedure
throughout the province. We have for some years
been engaged in delegating powers which can be safely
delegated.
14684. It was suggested in Burma that the principle
should be to vest powers as low down as possible with
safety ; what do you think as to that ?—I agree.
14685. The difference of attitude would probably
be that you would build up from the bottom instead
of unloading from the top ?—In preparing our
schedule of proposed delegations we examined the
tables of cases disposed of by Under-Secretaries and
the Proceedings of Government for the last three
years and the Acts and rules under which references
to higher authority are now required. We have
proposed to delegate all powers which it is considered
safe to delegate, especially in matters which are found
to involve frequent references under the present
system.
14686. With your present system of working with
the Board of Revenue, how do you provide for a
separate record ; do you duplicate the whole record ?—
No ; if it is an unprinted case it is kept as the Board’s
record, but if it is a printed case, we take out the
papers which would otherwise form the Government
record and print them only.
14687. Will that cause any difficulty, say, twenty
years hence ?—Of course it is a thing that wants
watching. I have found difficulty in some respects
owing to delays, but I think difficulties of that kind
will be avoided as the system settles down.
14688. You have six Commissioners in Bengal: how
far do their charges represent natural linguistic
divisions ?—The Orissa Commissionership is confined
to the Uriya-speaking people ; in Chota Nagpur the
language is chiefly Hindi; in Bihar, where there are
two Commissioners it is Hindi ; and in the Commis-
sionerships of Bengal proper the people speak
Bengali. .
14689. With regard to transfers, it has been
suggested that it would be possible to avoid them in
some small degree by distributing the reserve of
officers. At present the whole reserve is kept in the
lowest grade of Civilians, is it not ?—Yes.
14690. The suggestion was that in order to be able
to provide for leave and a reserve for spec al duties
there should be two or three Collectors in excess of
the number of districts ?—Yes, either that or our
proposal for extra Joint-Magistrates.
14691. Would it be a good thing to have several
extra Collectors ?—I think if you had the extra Joint-
Magistrates, you could do without them.
14692. What is a Sub-Deputy Collector exactly ?—
He was originally intended to be an officer for local
enquir es, but he has gradually developed into a
Magistrate of a subordinate grade, either at district
or subdivisional headquarters; if he is at sub-
divisional headquarters, he generally does treasury
work.
14693. One witness has pointed out the great
hardship to people engaged in petty cases, in getting
their cases disposed of at present ; where does a petty
case come for disposal ?—A great many of them are
tried by the ordinary Magistrates.
14694. If the Sub-Deputy Collector could be
developed into a revenue enquiry officer and residential
C 2
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Gait.
21 Dec., 1907.