DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0036
30
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
The Hon.
Mr. C. E. A.
Oldham.
27 Dee., 1907.
The Hon.
Mr. W. A,
Inglis.
27 Dec., 1907.
14976. Do they virtually terminate with the Board
of Revenue ?—I think so.
14977. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) If a general dele-
gating Act were passed, would it be passed by the
same Legislative Council as passed the original Act, or
would it be passed by a superior Legislative Council ?
—Probably by a superior Legislative Council.
14978. If such an Act were passed, would the public
cease to expect the Government to proceed by specific
legislation ?—Yes, I imagine so.
14979. (Mr. Meyer.) As a matter of fact, are the
budget estimates as modified by the Government
accompanied by a letter from the Financial Secretary
explaining that such modifications as have been made
are made in the interests of financial accuracy, and
that there would be no objection to Local Govern-
ments spending more if they can find the money ?—
Latterly that has been done, but I do not know if it
was always done.
14980. Is not the position that the Local Govern-
ment can make reappropriations within its own bud-
get, so long as the total of the budget estimate is not
exceeded, but if the total is exceeded, they have to go
to the Government of India ?—That is so.
14981. Have you ever had to go up as regards that ?
—I have only been ■ in charge for a month.
14982. It would be necessary, in any case, that you
should inform the Government of India of any extra
allotments you are making ?—Yes.
14983. You are in favour of an arrangement under
which the Government of India, after taking certain
imperial heads of revenue, would get a fixed per-
centage from the provincial heads ? Is not that the
system in force now, and does not the Government
of India divide the heads with you ?—Certainly.
14984. And you get the whole of the rest?—-Yes.
14985. Then what is the difference between your
proposed system and the present one?—We do not
get a share of the customs revenue.
14986. Dq you think you should get a share of it ?
— Yes. It is a very expanding revenue. I have not
suggested railways, because I do not think the
Imperial Government would ever give that up.
14987. With regard to customs, a great quantity of
goods which are consumed outside Bengal pays the
original duty in Calcutta ?—I cannot say.
14988. Who pays for the goods eventually—the
persons who consume them ?—Yes.
14989. Therefore, you would be levying a tax on the
consumer in, say, the United Provinces ?—Possibly.
14990. Is the chief object in having a change to get
more revenue ?—More of the expanding revenue, yes.
14991. You propose that all the powers vested in
the Government of India with regard to the Civil
Service Regulations should be transferred to the
Local Government?—Not all ; only those in respect
of travelling allowances and pensions.
14992. Are not pensions largely paid by the Govern-
ment of India ?—Yes. Local Governments would
naturally only deal with the pensions paid from pro-
vincial funds.
14993. You say there should be a senior Magistrate
in every district—do you mean a personal assistant to
the Collector ?—At present the Joint-Magistrate is not
a personal assistant to the Collector, or at least cannot
be described as such, but he generally disposes of all
the more important criminal work, and to relieve the
District Magistrate of that would enable him to
devote more time to his revenue functions.
14994. Are you in agreement with other witnesses
who have suggested that the best way to relieve the
Collector is to have a Sadar Sub-Divisional Officer ?
—I think he ought to have that as well. One of the
chief functions of a Joint-Magistrate would be to pre-
serve continuity. When an officei- goes on leave, or is
removed from his district, or from any other cause,
the Joint-Magistrate would hold charge.
14995. Then you want the Collector to be relieved
of the work of the sub-division and to have this
officer as well ?—Yes.
14996. Is that done in Bombay ?—I do not know.
The Collector in Bengal has not immediate charge of
the Sadar sub-division ; he has immediate charge of
the whole district, but there is no separate administra-
tion for the Sadar sub-division. The criminal work
is done by the Deputy Magistrate at headquarters ;
the revenue work is done by the Deputy Collectors at
headquarters.
14997. Is there no separate officer with territorial
responsibility over the Sadar sub-division ?—No, there
is not; in Bengal those territorial duties are practically
nil; there are no separate revenue functions to per-
form in respect of the sub-divisions as distinct from
the general revenue work of the district which is done
at headquarters.
14998. Is the Sadar Sub-Divisional Officer to act as
a Magistrate ?—Yes, his functions would be almost
entirely magisterial and police.
14999. Mr. Gait explained the new system intro-
duced by the Lieutenant-Governor under which cases
were dealt with, which had to come from the Board of
Revenue to the Government ; is the method described
by him that which prevails in your department ?—Yes.
15000. Taking the case of a municipality starting
a waterworks scheme to which you give assistance in
regard to the capital account, is it able to levy a rate
in support of the scheme ?—Yes.
15001. And the persons benefiting by the water are
supposed to pay ?—Yes.
15302. In most provinces there is a land cess of one
anna in the rupee, the whole of which is taken by the
District Board ; in Bengal, as I understand, there is a
system under which only one half goes to the existing
District Board and the other half is taken by the
Local Government as Public Works Cess ; on the other
hand, out of that half does not the Local Government
give about a half again—that is to say about a quarter
of an anna in the rupee, to the various District
Boards in the shape of subsidies ?—It makes grants
equal to a quarter of the Public Works Cess.
15003. Not rateably to each Board as a whole, but
to the Boards collectively ?—Yes.
15004. Reference has been made to the fact of the
District Engineer being taken away from the control
of the Board ; would that be altogether satisfactory
to the Board ?—Personally I do not ; as Chairman of
a District Board I have had a good deal of difficulty
with the District Engineer, and I think he ought to be
entirely under the control of the District Board.
(The witness withdrew.)
The Hon. Mr. W. A. Inglis was called and examined.
15005. (Chairman.) You are Chief Engineer in the
Public Works Department and your duties are moie
particularly concerned with irrigation ?— Yes. I am
also Secretary in the Bengal Public Works Department.
In Bengal there is no absolute separation between
the Irrigation Branch and the Buildings Branch of
the Public Works Department. Executive Engineers
in charge of Canal or Embankment Divisions have
also charge of the Government roads and buildings
within the territorial limits of their charges. At the
same time there are certain divisions and circles which
deal only with buildings and roads. There are two
Chief Engineers and Secretaries to Government. One
deals with buildings and roads. The other with irriga-
tion, embankments, navigation and drainage. It
follows that the Chief Engineer of the Roads and
Buildings Branch has dealingsF with the Superinten-
ding Engineers of all Circles, while the Chief Engineer
of the Irrigation Branch deals only as a rule with the
Superintending Engineers of Irrigation Circles.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
The Hon.
Mr. C. E. A.
Oldham.
27 Dee., 1907.
The Hon.
Mr. W. A,
Inglis.
27 Dec., 1907.
14976. Do they virtually terminate with the Board
of Revenue ?—I think so.
14977. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) If a general dele-
gating Act were passed, would it be passed by the
same Legislative Council as passed the original Act, or
would it be passed by a superior Legislative Council ?
—Probably by a superior Legislative Council.
14978. If such an Act were passed, would the public
cease to expect the Government to proceed by specific
legislation ?—Yes, I imagine so.
14979. (Mr. Meyer.) As a matter of fact, are the
budget estimates as modified by the Government
accompanied by a letter from the Financial Secretary
explaining that such modifications as have been made
are made in the interests of financial accuracy, and
that there would be no objection to Local Govern-
ments spending more if they can find the money ?—
Latterly that has been done, but I do not know if it
was always done.
14980. Is not the position that the Local Govern-
ment can make reappropriations within its own bud-
get, so long as the total of the budget estimate is not
exceeded, but if the total is exceeded, they have to go
to the Government of India ?—That is so.
14981. Have you ever had to go up as regards that ?
—I have only been ■ in charge for a month.
14982. It would be necessary, in any case, that you
should inform the Government of India of any extra
allotments you are making ?—Yes.
14983. You are in favour of an arrangement under
which the Government of India, after taking certain
imperial heads of revenue, would get a fixed per-
centage from the provincial heads ? Is not that the
system in force now, and does not the Government
of India divide the heads with you ?—Certainly.
14984. And you get the whole of the rest?—-Yes.
14985. Then what is the difference between your
proposed system and the present one?—We do not
get a share of the customs revenue.
14986. Dq you think you should get a share of it ?
— Yes. It is a very expanding revenue. I have not
suggested railways, because I do not think the
Imperial Government would ever give that up.
14987. With regard to customs, a great quantity of
goods which are consumed outside Bengal pays the
original duty in Calcutta ?—I cannot say.
14988. Who pays for the goods eventually—the
persons who consume them ?—Yes.
14989. Therefore, you would be levying a tax on the
consumer in, say, the United Provinces ?—Possibly.
14990. Is the chief object in having a change to get
more revenue ?—More of the expanding revenue, yes.
14991. You propose that all the powers vested in
the Government of India with regard to the Civil
Service Regulations should be transferred to the
Local Government?—Not all ; only those in respect
of travelling allowances and pensions.
14992. Are not pensions largely paid by the Govern-
ment of India ?—Yes. Local Governments would
naturally only deal with the pensions paid from pro-
vincial funds.
14993. You say there should be a senior Magistrate
in every district—do you mean a personal assistant to
the Collector ?—At present the Joint-Magistrate is not
a personal assistant to the Collector, or at least cannot
be described as such, but he generally disposes of all
the more important criminal work, and to relieve the
District Magistrate of that would enable him to
devote more time to his revenue functions.
14994. Are you in agreement with other witnesses
who have suggested that the best way to relieve the
Collector is to have a Sadar Sub-Divisional Officer ?
—I think he ought to have that as well. One of the
chief functions of a Joint-Magistrate would be to pre-
serve continuity. When an officei- goes on leave, or is
removed from his district, or from any other cause,
the Joint-Magistrate would hold charge.
14995. Then you want the Collector to be relieved
of the work of the sub-division and to have this
officer as well ?—Yes.
14996. Is that done in Bombay ?—I do not know.
The Collector in Bengal has not immediate charge of
the Sadar sub-division ; he has immediate charge of
the whole district, but there is no separate administra-
tion for the Sadar sub-division. The criminal work
is done by the Deputy Magistrate at headquarters ;
the revenue work is done by the Deputy Collectors at
headquarters.
14997. Is there no separate officer with territorial
responsibility over the Sadar sub-division ?—No, there
is not; in Bengal those territorial duties are practically
nil; there are no separate revenue functions to per-
form in respect of the sub-divisions as distinct from
the general revenue work of the district which is done
at headquarters.
14998. Is the Sadar Sub-Divisional Officer to act as
a Magistrate ?—Yes, his functions would be almost
entirely magisterial and police.
14999. Mr. Gait explained the new system intro-
duced by the Lieutenant-Governor under which cases
were dealt with, which had to come from the Board of
Revenue to the Government ; is the method described
by him that which prevails in your department ?—Yes.
15000. Taking the case of a municipality starting
a waterworks scheme to which you give assistance in
regard to the capital account, is it able to levy a rate
in support of the scheme ?—Yes.
15001. And the persons benefiting by the water are
supposed to pay ?—Yes.
15302. In most provinces there is a land cess of one
anna in the rupee, the whole of which is taken by the
District Board ; in Bengal, as I understand, there is a
system under which only one half goes to the existing
District Board and the other half is taken by the
Local Government as Public Works Cess ; on the other
hand, out of that half does not the Local Government
give about a half again—that is to say about a quarter
of an anna in the rupee, to the various District
Boards in the shape of subsidies ?—It makes grants
equal to a quarter of the Public Works Cess.
15003. Not rateably to each Board as a whole, but
to the Boards collectively ?—Yes.
15004. Reference has been made to the fact of the
District Engineer being taken away from the control
of the Board ; would that be altogether satisfactory
to the Board ?—Personally I do not ; as Chairman of
a District Board I have had a good deal of difficulty
with the District Engineer, and I think he ought to be
entirely under the control of the District Board.
(The witness withdrew.)
The Hon. Mr. W. A. Inglis was called and examined.
15005. (Chairman.) You are Chief Engineer in the
Public Works Department and your duties are moie
particularly concerned with irrigation ?— Yes. I am
also Secretary in the Bengal Public Works Department.
In Bengal there is no absolute separation between
the Irrigation Branch and the Buildings Branch of
the Public Works Department. Executive Engineers
in charge of Canal or Embankment Divisions have
also charge of the Government roads and buildings
within the territorial limits of their charges. At the
same time there are certain divisions and circles which
deal only with buildings and roads. There are two
Chief Engineers and Secretaries to Government. One
deals with buildings and roads. The other with irriga-
tion, embankments, navigation and drainage. It
follows that the Chief Engineer of the Roads and
Buildings Branch has dealingsF with the Superinten-
ding Engineers of all Circles, while the Chief Engineer
of the Irrigation Branch deals only as a rule with the
Superintending Engineers of Irrigation Circles.