DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0038
32
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
The Um.
Mr. IF. A.
Inglis.
27 Dec., 1907.
is impossible at times, e.g., cases of illness or emergent
work, to avoid transfers which are in themselves
undesirable, and I am unable to suggest any remedy.
The Bengal Government has recently appointed
District Committees to advise Government in respect
to projected schemes for embankments, minor irriga-
tion works or drainage. At present it would not be
advisable to give such District Committees any
executive authority.
The sale of water for irrigation by volume to
village communities has always been regarded as an
ideal to be aimed at, but there does not seem much
prospect of putting it in practice. In my early days
on the Sone canals, when I was in close touch with
the cultivators, I often discussed the question with
them. They always said that they preferred to have
the Government officers to make the detailed assess-
ment, as they would be unable to do it themselves
with fairness and without quarrelling. If, however,
self-government is ever to be more than a name, it
must begin with simple matters of this nature in
which there is a strong local interest affecting the
whole community.
15006. You say that there is no absolute separation
between the Irrigation Branch and the Buildings
Branch in the lower ranks ?—Up to the grade of
Superintending Engineer there is no distinction. The
distinction comes in above that.
15007. Is that an advantageous system —It is
obligatory under the condition of the province. The
irrigation works are on a small scale in Bengal, and
the Irrigation Engineers are quite able to look after
the roads and buildings under their charge.
15008. Have you a Provincial Service under you ?—
The Provincial Service and the Imperial Service run
together ; there is no distinction in regard to the
duties ; only in salary.
15009. How do you appoint to the Provincial
Service ?—The Government of India appoints on our
nomination under certain fixed rules.
15010. Might the system be altered advantageously
to the Service ?—Yes, I think so.
15011. Who appoints to the Subordinate Service ?—
The Local Government ; the Secretaries nominate,
and the Lieutenant-Governor appoints.
15012. Do you find as a rule that the opinions of
Local Government, with regard to matters with which
you are concerned, are treated with respect ?—I think
so now.
15013. Has your position, therefore, with regard to
the Government of India improved of late ?—-I think
so ; much more attention is paid now to the wishes of
the Local Government.
15014. With regard to residences for officers, you
desire to see some relaxation made ?—The Local
Government might be given extended powers of dis-
cretion. At present if a residence costs more than a
certain sum, which is calculated on the salary of the
officer, the sanction of the Government of India is
necessary, although the money is entirely spent from
provincial revenue funds.
15015. Is the difficulty which exists in connection
with these buildings due to the Public Works Code?
' —The rules are those of the Code.
15016. Is that not an exceedingly complicated Code ?
—Yes. It is contained in two large volumes. It is
issued under the authority of the Government of
India.
15017. And some of it, no doubt, under the direc-
tion of the Secretary of State ?—I presume so.
15018. Has any attempt within your knowledge
ever been made to simplify this Code ?—I do not know
of any attempt.
15019. Could it be advantageously simplified ?—Yes,
I think so. It would require an examination of it in
detail to say in what particular direction.
15020. Are both you, as a department, and the
Government of which you are Secretary, landed in
ludicrous positions on account of the provisions con-
tained in that Code ?—Yes, in certain cases, such as,
for instance, if a lead pencil is bought—things of that
kind are ludicrous.
15021. We have heard of a witness who had to live
in a house for two years without doors or windows in
consequence of some regulation. Was that due to
the Code?—I should have thought it was due to a
want of common sense On the part of the officer in
not disregarding the provisions of the Code.
15022. Is there due consideration on the part of the
Local Government first, and secondly on the part of
the Government of India, in respect to the projects
they sanction, having regard to revenue ?—Perhaps
more consideration should be given to the indirect
advantages of irrigation works.
15923. Is a work which is unproductive from the
point of view of revenue therefore more useful to
the public generally than a work that produces
revenue ?—Not more useful, certainly not.
15024. If the work which produces revenue is
equally useful to the public, what is the harm of
executing that work rather than a work which, though
of equal use, brings in less revenue ?—I quite admit
that the preference should be given to the more pro-
ductive work, but it means then that certain localities
would have to remain almost indefinitely without
works which would be very useful.
15025. Are you speaking of works constructed from
capital or from revenue ?—If it is a non-productive
work, it must be constructed from revenue.
15026. Would it not be rather difficult to find, say,
40 lakhs of rupees from revenue ?—The suggestion I
make is that 10 lakhs should be found from revenue
and 30 lakhs should be found from loan funds.
15027. If 10 lakhs had to be found from revenue
that would mean that something else would have to go
without ?—Yes.
15028. But might there not be an outcry in regard
to other schemes ?—Undoubtedly.
15029. Therefore, there is considerable difficulty in
deciding as between the schemes of various kinds ?—
Yes, great difficulty.
15030. And it might be that the work which pro-
duced revenue would be equally valuable to the public
and equally wanted ?—The question would also arise
not only between revenue-producing works, but also
roads, which are unproductive. The revenues are
limited and there are many claims upon them, and I
only plead for a share of the surplus revenue of the
province for my particular branch.
15031. Is there undue favouritism with regard to,
say, works of irrigation which produce revenue as
against roads which do not produce revenue ?—No,
I should not say that.
15032. Have your officers a good knowledge of the
vernacular ?—Fairly good. I would not say more. I
think it desirable that they should have a better
knowledge.
15033. There is very little irrigation work in
Bengal ?—We irrigate about 800,000 acres—a com-
paratively small area compared with other provinces.
15034. Under whose responsibility is the actual dis-
tribution of the water ?—Under the responsibility of
the Canal Engineers. In this province we have pro-
bably more complete control than in any other ; we
not only distribute the water, but we collect the
water-rate.
15035. Do the people of the districts in which there
is any irrigation come quite naturally to you ?—
Quite, and they are in immediate touch with our
Canal Officers.
15036. {Mr. Meyer.) Referring to the Calcutta
housing scheme, you say that tends to favour the
Indian engineers, but are there many Indian engineers
concerned ?—W e have about half and half. We have
about as many Indian engineers as Europeans.
15037. Do you count Eurasians on the European
side ?—About one-third are pure natives.
15038. You mentioned some matter with regard to
the Public Works Department Code ; is not the
general feature of it excessive centralization ?—The
Superintending Engineer has very wide powers of
sanction. The whole of the funds for maintenance,
which are large sums, are entirely at the disposal of
the Superintending Engineer, who sanctions all esti-
mates for repairs and maintenance.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
The Um.
Mr. IF. A.
Inglis.
27 Dec., 1907.
is impossible at times, e.g., cases of illness or emergent
work, to avoid transfers which are in themselves
undesirable, and I am unable to suggest any remedy.
The Bengal Government has recently appointed
District Committees to advise Government in respect
to projected schemes for embankments, minor irriga-
tion works or drainage. At present it would not be
advisable to give such District Committees any
executive authority.
The sale of water for irrigation by volume to
village communities has always been regarded as an
ideal to be aimed at, but there does not seem much
prospect of putting it in practice. In my early days
on the Sone canals, when I was in close touch with
the cultivators, I often discussed the question with
them. They always said that they preferred to have
the Government officers to make the detailed assess-
ment, as they would be unable to do it themselves
with fairness and without quarrelling. If, however,
self-government is ever to be more than a name, it
must begin with simple matters of this nature in
which there is a strong local interest affecting the
whole community.
15006. You say that there is no absolute separation
between the Irrigation Branch and the Buildings
Branch in the lower ranks ?—Up to the grade of
Superintending Engineer there is no distinction. The
distinction comes in above that.
15007. Is that an advantageous system —It is
obligatory under the condition of the province. The
irrigation works are on a small scale in Bengal, and
the Irrigation Engineers are quite able to look after
the roads and buildings under their charge.
15008. Have you a Provincial Service under you ?—
The Provincial Service and the Imperial Service run
together ; there is no distinction in regard to the
duties ; only in salary.
15009. How do you appoint to the Provincial
Service ?—The Government of India appoints on our
nomination under certain fixed rules.
15010. Might the system be altered advantageously
to the Service ?—Yes, I think so.
15011. Who appoints to the Subordinate Service ?—
The Local Government ; the Secretaries nominate,
and the Lieutenant-Governor appoints.
15012. Do you find as a rule that the opinions of
Local Government, with regard to matters with which
you are concerned, are treated with respect ?—I think
so now.
15013. Has your position, therefore, with regard to
the Government of India improved of late ?—-I think
so ; much more attention is paid now to the wishes of
the Local Government.
15014. With regard to residences for officers, you
desire to see some relaxation made ?—The Local
Government might be given extended powers of dis-
cretion. At present if a residence costs more than a
certain sum, which is calculated on the salary of the
officer, the sanction of the Government of India is
necessary, although the money is entirely spent from
provincial revenue funds.
15015. Is the difficulty which exists in connection
with these buildings due to the Public Works Code?
' —The rules are those of the Code.
15016. Is that not an exceedingly complicated Code ?
—Yes. It is contained in two large volumes. It is
issued under the authority of the Government of
India.
15017. And some of it, no doubt, under the direc-
tion of the Secretary of State ?—I presume so.
15018. Has any attempt within your knowledge
ever been made to simplify this Code ?—I do not know
of any attempt.
15019. Could it be advantageously simplified ?—Yes,
I think so. It would require an examination of it in
detail to say in what particular direction.
15020. Are both you, as a department, and the
Government of which you are Secretary, landed in
ludicrous positions on account of the provisions con-
tained in that Code ?—Yes, in certain cases, such as,
for instance, if a lead pencil is bought—things of that
kind are ludicrous.
15021. We have heard of a witness who had to live
in a house for two years without doors or windows in
consequence of some regulation. Was that due to
the Code?—I should have thought it was due to a
want of common sense On the part of the officer in
not disregarding the provisions of the Code.
15022. Is there due consideration on the part of the
Local Government first, and secondly on the part of
the Government of India, in respect to the projects
they sanction, having regard to revenue ?—Perhaps
more consideration should be given to the indirect
advantages of irrigation works.
15923. Is a work which is unproductive from the
point of view of revenue therefore more useful to
the public generally than a work that produces
revenue ?—Not more useful, certainly not.
15024. If the work which produces revenue is
equally useful to the public, what is the harm of
executing that work rather than a work which, though
of equal use, brings in less revenue ?—I quite admit
that the preference should be given to the more pro-
ductive work, but it means then that certain localities
would have to remain almost indefinitely without
works which would be very useful.
15025. Are you speaking of works constructed from
capital or from revenue ?—If it is a non-productive
work, it must be constructed from revenue.
15026. Would it not be rather difficult to find, say,
40 lakhs of rupees from revenue ?—The suggestion I
make is that 10 lakhs should be found from revenue
and 30 lakhs should be found from loan funds.
15027. If 10 lakhs had to be found from revenue
that would mean that something else would have to go
without ?—Yes.
15028. But might there not be an outcry in regard
to other schemes ?—Undoubtedly.
15029. Therefore, there is considerable difficulty in
deciding as between the schemes of various kinds ?—
Yes, great difficulty.
15030. And it might be that the work which pro-
duced revenue would be equally valuable to the public
and equally wanted ?—The question would also arise
not only between revenue-producing works, but also
roads, which are unproductive. The revenues are
limited and there are many claims upon them, and I
only plead for a share of the surplus revenue of the
province for my particular branch.
15031. Is there undue favouritism with regard to,
say, works of irrigation which produce revenue as
against roads which do not produce revenue ?—No,
I should not say that.
15032. Have your officers a good knowledge of the
vernacular ?—Fairly good. I would not say more. I
think it desirable that they should have a better
knowledge.
15033. There is very little irrigation work in
Bengal ?—We irrigate about 800,000 acres—a com-
paratively small area compared with other provinces.
15034. Under whose responsibility is the actual dis-
tribution of the water ?—Under the responsibility of
the Canal Engineers. In this province we have pro-
bably more complete control than in any other ; we
not only distribute the water, but we collect the
water-rate.
15035. Do the people of the districts in which there
is any irrigation come quite naturally to you ?—
Quite, and they are in immediate touch with our
Canal Officers.
15036. {Mr. Meyer.) Referring to the Calcutta
housing scheme, you say that tends to favour the
Indian engineers, but are there many Indian engineers
concerned ?—W e have about half and half. We have
about as many Indian engineers as Europeans.
15037. Do you count Eurasians on the European
side ?—About one-third are pure natives.
15038. You mentioned some matter with regard to
the Public Works Department Code ; is not the
general feature of it excessive centralization ?—The
Superintending Engineer has very wide powers of
sanction. The whole of the funds for maintenance,
which are large sums, are entirely at the disposal of
the Superintending Engineer, who sanctions all esti-
mates for repairs and maintenance.