DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0049
BOYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
43
municipalities. Do you agree with him ?—I think
that increased power should be given to district
municipalities.
15290. Do you think that a Magistrate exercises
too much control over its budget ?—Yes, and not only
the budget, but as to minor details. I would like to
see his power confined to major heads.
15291. Supposing that that control was very largely
removed, do you not think there would be some un-
wise spending of money by the municipalities ?—Yes,
but the people would pay more attention to their
affairs, whereas if the Chairman and Commissioners
know that what they suggest will be checked by
the Magistrate, they will not take much interest in
them.
15292. You think that if the control of the Magis-
trate was removed, although there might be wasteful
extravagance, still there would be an improvement in
time ?—Yes.
15293. Would there be at first a certain amount of
corruption ?—No, because there are several persons on
the Board.
15294. When the municipality were able to spend
money more as they liked, would there be a certain
amount of corruption, as, for instance, some one might
want to put his brother, or his cousin, into some
place?—I do not think so, because the Municipal
Chairman and the Commissioners are all gentlemen
and men of education, and they would always take
care of that.
15295. But there might be extravagance. Would
you say the same thing with regard to District
Boards ?—The District Boards are different. At
present in almost all districts in Bengal the Magistrate
is the Chairman of the Board, and it is a Government
office. There are some elected members, but they
follow the advice and orders of the Magistrates, and
therefore at present it is a Government office, and the
power of making rules is in the hands of the Govern-
ment, so that the Government power is increased. If
more power is entrusted to the elected members, and if
an influential gentleman were appointed as Chairman
of the Board, I think it would be an improvement
15296. If it ceased to be a Government office would
the members of the Board take greater interest and
feel greater responsibility in their work ?—Yes.
15297. There again there might at first be some
extravagance ?-—No, I think not, because the money
would be checked by a Government auditor, and there
is very little chance of extravagance.
15298. Do you not think a District Board, if freed
from the control of the Magistrate, might want to
raise the pay and salaries of its servants, for instance ?—
That would be at the discretion of the Board, but I
think if there is any necessity for increasing the pay,
it should be considered by the whole of the members
and the Chairman and Vice-Chairman.
15299. Do you agree with the other witnesses that
something might be done to increase the powers of the
village communities ?—Yes.
15300. Might there be found in a village respectable
men who could be joined to the panchayat and made
into a village Bench for the purpose of trying petty
criminal and civil cases ?—Yes.
15301. Would that tend greatly to the building up
of a sort of Local Government ?—Yes.
15302. {Mr. Meyer.') For what purpose would you
allow Local Governments to contract loans ?—Some-
times for public business they require more money,
and it cannot always be allotted.
15303. The Government of India already borrows
money for railways and irrigation works which more
than pay the charges, including interest ?—Yes.
15304. Do you wish to alter that system ?—But the
Government of Bengal requires money sometimes.
15305. You mean for something, perhaps, which
does not pay its way—such as a navigable canal, for
instance ?—Yes.
15306. Do you say that you would not reduce the
right of appeal even whe$e the appellant is absolutely
wrong ?—I do not mean to say where the appellant is
absolutely wrong, but, if he thinks he has not been
fairly dealt with, I would allow him to appeal.
33263
15307. But does that not mean a large waste of
time to superior officers ?—What I say is that even
where there is some hopeless case the appellant would
get some consolation if he has the power of appeal and
getting a hearing in the upper Court.
15308. The petitioner gets consolation, but the
Magistrate or the Lieutenant-Governor, as it may be,
has his time wasted in reading over the papers merely
to reject them ?—I do not speak in that sense. I am
taking the case of a poor man whose case has been
dismissed, and if he has the power of appeal, he has a
chance of winning his case ; but if he has no power of
appeal, or any hope of appealing to the higher authority,
he may think that justice has not been done him. I
am not for an appeal in a case which is not a true case.
15309. You want to give larger powers to Commis-
sioners, I understand ? But if everything they do is to
be appealed against to the Lieutenant-Governor, or the
Board of Revenue, will it be much good giving them
larger powers ?—Yes, they can do something, I think.
15310. Do you mean the Advisory Council you
suggest to be purely advisory ?—Whenever an import-
ant case came before him, and he wanted the help of
the Advisory Council to decide it, I would let them
advise him.
15311. But supposing the majority of the Advisory
Council said, “ You are to do this,” and the Commis-
sioner said, “ No, I do not think that is advisable, I
want to do something else,” what would happen ?—In
that case there must be some Appellate Court, no
doubt.
15312. And therefore you would refer to the Govern-
ment or the Board of Revenue ?—Yes.
15313. And the same with a Collector ?—Yes.
15314. You say that the work of the District Officer
would be lightened, but how could that be if he has to
consult a number of people, and then refer to a higher
authority if he did not carry the opinion of his
advisers with him ?—I think if the true circumstances
of the case were brought before him there would be
very few appeals. Generally appeals take place in cases
which are not properly represented, and the officer
trying the case does not know the facts and there are
mistakes in his judgment ; but if he is enlightened with
the help of the other members, he can decide whether
the fcase is a true one or not, and I think then the
number of appeals would be lessened.
15315. But you say that they should not have the
right of intervening in judicial matters ?—Yes.
15316. Would you have this Advisory Council elected
by members of the District Board and others ?—Yes.
15317. Would you get a proper representation of the
people in that way ?—Yes.
15318. Would it not be likely that you would get a
great many pleaders and people of that kind on the
Board?—Not only pleaders—you would also get people
of the merchant class and the educated class, and
zamindars—you would get all sorts of men.
15319. But do large zamindars like yourself usually
occupy a seat on. the Board ?—There are some who
take a seat on the Board.
15320. Would you get quite a good Advisory Council
simply from the District Boards and municipalities ?—
Yes.
15321. You speak of a Board of Control at head-
quarters over municipalities like the Local Government
Board in England. Are you aware that the Local
Government Board in England is a mere fiction, and
that the whole of the work is done by a single Cabinet
Minister with his staff ?—We only know that there is
such a body in England.
15322. Do you desire to dissociate the Collector
from the presidency of the District Board, and would
you also take the magisterial work from him ?—Yes.
15323. If you take him away from the presidency
of the District Board, do you not dissociate him
from the work in connection with roads, sanitation
and education ? You would make him a mere collector
of revenue and a trier of cases ?—Yes.
15324. Is that a satisfactory position for a Collector?
— The Collector has power to deal with all the officers
of the district ; being the District Magistrate and
Collector he has power to deal with education,
irrigation, roads and everything.
F 2
Maharaja
Manindra
Chandra
Nandy.
28 Dec., 1907,
43
municipalities. Do you agree with him ?—I think
that increased power should be given to district
municipalities.
15290. Do you think that a Magistrate exercises
too much control over its budget ?—Yes, and not only
the budget, but as to minor details. I would like to
see his power confined to major heads.
15291. Supposing that that control was very largely
removed, do you not think there would be some un-
wise spending of money by the municipalities ?—Yes,
but the people would pay more attention to their
affairs, whereas if the Chairman and Commissioners
know that what they suggest will be checked by
the Magistrate, they will not take much interest in
them.
15292. You think that if the control of the Magis-
trate was removed, although there might be wasteful
extravagance, still there would be an improvement in
time ?—Yes.
15293. Would there be at first a certain amount of
corruption ?—No, because there are several persons on
the Board.
15294. When the municipality were able to spend
money more as they liked, would there be a certain
amount of corruption, as, for instance, some one might
want to put his brother, or his cousin, into some
place?—I do not think so, because the Municipal
Chairman and the Commissioners are all gentlemen
and men of education, and they would always take
care of that.
15295. But there might be extravagance. Would
you say the same thing with regard to District
Boards ?—The District Boards are different. At
present in almost all districts in Bengal the Magistrate
is the Chairman of the Board, and it is a Government
office. There are some elected members, but they
follow the advice and orders of the Magistrates, and
therefore at present it is a Government office, and the
power of making rules is in the hands of the Govern-
ment, so that the Government power is increased. If
more power is entrusted to the elected members, and if
an influential gentleman were appointed as Chairman
of the Board, I think it would be an improvement
15296. If it ceased to be a Government office would
the members of the Board take greater interest and
feel greater responsibility in their work ?—Yes.
15297. There again there might at first be some
extravagance ?-—No, I think not, because the money
would be checked by a Government auditor, and there
is very little chance of extravagance.
15298. Do you not think a District Board, if freed
from the control of the Magistrate, might want to
raise the pay and salaries of its servants, for instance ?—
That would be at the discretion of the Board, but I
think if there is any necessity for increasing the pay,
it should be considered by the whole of the members
and the Chairman and Vice-Chairman.
15299. Do you agree with the other witnesses that
something might be done to increase the powers of the
village communities ?—Yes.
15300. Might there be found in a village respectable
men who could be joined to the panchayat and made
into a village Bench for the purpose of trying petty
criminal and civil cases ?—Yes.
15301. Would that tend greatly to the building up
of a sort of Local Government ?—Yes.
15302. {Mr. Meyer.') For what purpose would you
allow Local Governments to contract loans ?—Some-
times for public business they require more money,
and it cannot always be allotted.
15303. The Government of India already borrows
money for railways and irrigation works which more
than pay the charges, including interest ?—Yes.
15304. Do you wish to alter that system ?—But the
Government of Bengal requires money sometimes.
15305. You mean for something, perhaps, which
does not pay its way—such as a navigable canal, for
instance ?—Yes.
15306. Do you say that you would not reduce the
right of appeal even whe$e the appellant is absolutely
wrong ?—I do not mean to say where the appellant is
absolutely wrong, but, if he thinks he has not been
fairly dealt with, I would allow him to appeal.
33263
15307. But does that not mean a large waste of
time to superior officers ?—What I say is that even
where there is some hopeless case the appellant would
get some consolation if he has the power of appeal and
getting a hearing in the upper Court.
15308. The petitioner gets consolation, but the
Magistrate or the Lieutenant-Governor, as it may be,
has his time wasted in reading over the papers merely
to reject them ?—I do not speak in that sense. I am
taking the case of a poor man whose case has been
dismissed, and if he has the power of appeal, he has a
chance of winning his case ; but if he has no power of
appeal, or any hope of appealing to the higher authority,
he may think that justice has not been done him. I
am not for an appeal in a case which is not a true case.
15309. You want to give larger powers to Commis-
sioners, I understand ? But if everything they do is to
be appealed against to the Lieutenant-Governor, or the
Board of Revenue, will it be much good giving them
larger powers ?—Yes, they can do something, I think.
15310. Do you mean the Advisory Council you
suggest to be purely advisory ?—Whenever an import-
ant case came before him, and he wanted the help of
the Advisory Council to decide it, I would let them
advise him.
15311. But supposing the majority of the Advisory
Council said, “ You are to do this,” and the Commis-
sioner said, “ No, I do not think that is advisable, I
want to do something else,” what would happen ?—In
that case there must be some Appellate Court, no
doubt.
15312. And therefore you would refer to the Govern-
ment or the Board of Revenue ?—Yes.
15313. And the same with a Collector ?—Yes.
15314. You say that the work of the District Officer
would be lightened, but how could that be if he has to
consult a number of people, and then refer to a higher
authority if he did not carry the opinion of his
advisers with him ?—I think if the true circumstances
of the case were brought before him there would be
very few appeals. Generally appeals take place in cases
which are not properly represented, and the officer
trying the case does not know the facts and there are
mistakes in his judgment ; but if he is enlightened with
the help of the other members, he can decide whether
the fcase is a true one or not, and I think then the
number of appeals would be lessened.
15315. But you say that they should not have the
right of intervening in judicial matters ?—Yes.
15316. Would you have this Advisory Council elected
by members of the District Board and others ?—Yes.
15317. Would you get a proper representation of the
people in that way ?—Yes.
15318. Would it not be likely that you would get a
great many pleaders and people of that kind on the
Board?—Not only pleaders—you would also get people
of the merchant class and the educated class, and
zamindars—you would get all sorts of men.
15319. But do large zamindars like yourself usually
occupy a seat on. the Board ?—There are some who
take a seat on the Board.
15320. Would you get quite a good Advisory Council
simply from the District Boards and municipalities ?—
Yes.
15321. You speak of a Board of Control at head-
quarters over municipalities like the Local Government
Board in England. Are you aware that the Local
Government Board in England is a mere fiction, and
that the whole of the work is done by a single Cabinet
Minister with his staff ?—We only know that there is
such a body in England.
15322. Do you desire to dissociate the Collector
from the presidency of the District Board, and would
you also take the magisterial work from him ?—Yes.
15323. If you take him away from the presidency
of the District Board, do you not dissociate him
from the work in connection with roads, sanitation
and education ? You would make him a mere collector
of revenue and a trier of cases ?—Yes.
15324. Is that a satisfactory position for a Collector?
— The Collector has power to deal with all the officers
of the district ; being the District Magistrate and
Collector he has power to deal with education,
irrigation, roads and everything.
F 2
Maharaja
Manindra
Chandra
Nandy.
28 Dec., 1907,