DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0052
46 MINUTES OF evidence:
Rai Kisori might be given the powers which are vested in the
Lal Goswami village headman in Madras ; that is to say, they may
Bahadur. he vested with the powers of Magistrates to try petty
cases, and may maintain law and order in the village,
ts Dec,, 13 n. appiying for assistance to the higher authorities, if
necessary, and reporting to them the occurrence of
crimes and the movements of criminal gangs. They
may also act as village Munsifs to try petty cases.
15379. The Commission have had before them other
Indian gentlemen who have stated that the Local
Government ought to be a self-contained Government
which should be capable of managing its own affairs
without the interference of the Government of India ;
will you tell us what your reasons are for holding the
contrary view ?—As the administration is at present
constituted, it would be better that the control exer-
cised by the Indian Government should continue, for
in several cases the administrative measures with
regard to the provincial Government are controlled by
the Government of India in a way which produces
very healthy results.
15380. Do you think that a Government which has
to do with the affairs of many millions of people, and
deal with many thousands of square miles, is not
capable of exercising a discretion in large, as well as
small, matters?—In my opinion it would be much
better that things should continue as they are at
present.
• 15381. But can you give me any particular reason ?
—We find the control as at present has a very healthy
effect in regard to all matters.
15382. Will you tell me with regard to one particu-
lar matter how it has?—I think that the very
existence of such a control makes the Government
more careful.
15383. Should you think it right, for instance, that
if the Public Works Department wanted to spend, say,
more than 10 lakhs of rupees, it should have to go to
the Government of India for sanction to that work ?
—Yes.
15384. You think that it helps forward the affairs of
the locality which perhaps wants some small drainage
work, or some public building ?—I am not speaking
with regard to those small matters ; those things are
really sanctioned as a matter of course.
15385. But is a reference in those matters to the
Indian Government necessary ?—In small matters the
control might be relaxed.
15386. What are the larger matters in which you
think it ought to be retained ?—I am speaking of
schemes involving large expenditure, which ought to be
subject to the sanction of the Government of India.
15387. Have you ever been brought into contact
with some of the higher officers of the Public Works
Department, for instance ?—No.
15388. So that you cannot personally judge of theii-
capacity to execute the work or not ?—No.
15389. Have you been brought very much into con-
tact with the higher officers of the Government—with
Lieutenant-Governors and members of the Board of
Revenue ?—Yes.
15390. Do you think, as a rule, that they are not
capable of exercising discretionary powers in regard
to large questions ?—Certainly, I consider them capa-
ble, but control is salutary.
15391. You wish us to think that the acquaintance
of the Collector with the people is very superficial ?—-
You live in the mufassal, and I daresay you have
come across a great number of District Officers ?—
Yes.
15392. Do the people hesitate to go to them ?—Yes.
Some of them allow ready access to them and treat
the people very well, but there are others who are
the very opposite, and there is a prevailing feeling
that they do not desire the people to approach them,
because in many cases the people do not receive the
treatment they expect to receive.
15393. Is that owing perhaps to some mistake on
both sides ?—Yes, it is partly due to mistakes and
want of knowledge of the vernacular of the country
on the part of the Magistrate, and also to the want of
knowledge of the manners of the people.-
15394. Would it be possible to collect information
with regard to the manners and customs, so that some
small book could be written upon each province which
would instruct young officers on the subject ?—I do
not know whether books would exactly enable one to
find out what were the manners and customs. It.
might help a little, but one must be prepared to asso-
ciate with men and for some little time put up with
what appear to be rather strange manners and customs.
15395. You think, then, that there are misunder-
standings on both sides ?—Yes.
15396. But such a book as I suggest might help a
young man coming out first of all ?—Yes, I think it
would.
15397. It would give him some instruction, which
would be supplemented, of course, by contact with
the people of the district ?—Yes; a tactful superior
officer might put him in possession of the way in
which to do the thing much more quickly.
15398. Are the superior officers, the Commissioners
and Collectors, wanting in knowledge of the manners
and customs of the people ?—Yes, in several cases
they are, and in some cases they are very good men.
15399. Is five years long enough for any District
Officer to stay in a district ?—Yes. He perhaps may
initiate some measure or work, and if he is there for
any shorter time he never sees the end of the thing,
and his successor, who might be a young man, would
possibly drop it. I think the Magistrate should be in
a district five years in order to get to know all about
it, and take an interest in it.
15400. Ought he to be there longer than five years ?
—He should not be there longer, I think, than five
years, but he should be there as close to five years as
possible.
15401. You are of opinion that the Commissioner
should be abolished and that the Board of Revenue
should take his place ? What makes you think that
that would be a good plan ?—As a matter of fact, so
far as I know, Commissioners have not really much
to do, and the Collectors, who are both Collectors and
Magistrates, are absolutely overworked. That is one
of the drawbacks, and why they cannot be quite nice
to the people who visit them.
15402. Would the better way be first to give the
Collectors and then Commissioners greater powers of
decision in settling matters instead of being, as some
have called them, mere post offices ?—I think it would
be much better that the District Officer should not
have any judicial work to do, but should be an Execu-
tive Officer pure and simple ; that is to say, that he
should do the Collector’s work, and if he is assisted by
an Advisory Council, I think the Commissioners would
not be required as a second check, in addition to that
exercised by the Board of Revenue and the Govern-
ment.
15403. The Commission were told that a Collector
would not have sufficient experience to deal with
matters in relation to the Court of Wards, but that
the ripe experience and knowledge of a Commissioner
would be required—do you hold that view ?—I do
not think so ; if you have, as Collectors, men with
mature experience of the Service and selected men.
15404. Do the Commissioners move about much in
their divisions?—They go about, and they have a
fixed groove to go through ; they visit the district
officers and inspect hospitals and jails, and talk to a
few leading men who are introduced by the Collector ;
I do not think the Commissioner does much more than
that.
15405. Therefore, it would be better to have a
stationary officer to deal with these matters?—Yes,
and, if necessary, I would increase the number of
members of the Board of Revenue in order to do the
inspection work.
15406. Then would you have the Board of Revenue
moving about ?—Some of the members may inspect
the district offices.
15407. Are some of the districts too large for one
District Officer?—Yes. They might be split up.
Some districts as compared with others are very large
and too much scattered.
15408. Would you like to see some extra powers
given to municipalities and District Boards?—Yes,
they have already very large powers under the Act.
I have only recommended just a few, but I think they
have fairly large powers.
Rai Kisori might be given the powers which are vested in the
Lal Goswami village headman in Madras ; that is to say, they may
Bahadur. he vested with the powers of Magistrates to try petty
cases, and may maintain law and order in the village,
ts Dec,, 13 n. appiying for assistance to the higher authorities, if
necessary, and reporting to them the occurrence of
crimes and the movements of criminal gangs. They
may also act as village Munsifs to try petty cases.
15379. The Commission have had before them other
Indian gentlemen who have stated that the Local
Government ought to be a self-contained Government
which should be capable of managing its own affairs
without the interference of the Government of India ;
will you tell us what your reasons are for holding the
contrary view ?—As the administration is at present
constituted, it would be better that the control exer-
cised by the Indian Government should continue, for
in several cases the administrative measures with
regard to the provincial Government are controlled by
the Government of India in a way which produces
very healthy results.
15380. Do you think that a Government which has
to do with the affairs of many millions of people, and
deal with many thousands of square miles, is not
capable of exercising a discretion in large, as well as
small, matters?—In my opinion it would be much
better that things should continue as they are at
present.
• 15381. But can you give me any particular reason ?
—We find the control as at present has a very healthy
effect in regard to all matters.
15382. Will you tell me with regard to one particu-
lar matter how it has?—I think that the very
existence of such a control makes the Government
more careful.
15383. Should you think it right, for instance, that
if the Public Works Department wanted to spend, say,
more than 10 lakhs of rupees, it should have to go to
the Government of India for sanction to that work ?
—Yes.
15384. You think that it helps forward the affairs of
the locality which perhaps wants some small drainage
work, or some public building ?—I am not speaking
with regard to those small matters ; those things are
really sanctioned as a matter of course.
15385. But is a reference in those matters to the
Indian Government necessary ?—In small matters the
control might be relaxed.
15386. What are the larger matters in which you
think it ought to be retained ?—I am speaking of
schemes involving large expenditure, which ought to be
subject to the sanction of the Government of India.
15387. Have you ever been brought into contact
with some of the higher officers of the Public Works
Department, for instance ?—No.
15388. So that you cannot personally judge of theii-
capacity to execute the work or not ?—No.
15389. Have you been brought very much into con-
tact with the higher officers of the Government—with
Lieutenant-Governors and members of the Board of
Revenue ?—Yes.
15390. Do you think, as a rule, that they are not
capable of exercising discretionary powers in regard
to large questions ?—Certainly, I consider them capa-
ble, but control is salutary.
15391. You wish us to think that the acquaintance
of the Collector with the people is very superficial ?—-
You live in the mufassal, and I daresay you have
come across a great number of District Officers ?—
Yes.
15392. Do the people hesitate to go to them ?—Yes.
Some of them allow ready access to them and treat
the people very well, but there are others who are
the very opposite, and there is a prevailing feeling
that they do not desire the people to approach them,
because in many cases the people do not receive the
treatment they expect to receive.
15393. Is that owing perhaps to some mistake on
both sides ?—Yes, it is partly due to mistakes and
want of knowledge of the vernacular of the country
on the part of the Magistrate, and also to the want of
knowledge of the manners of the people.-
15394. Would it be possible to collect information
with regard to the manners and customs, so that some
small book could be written upon each province which
would instruct young officers on the subject ?—I do
not know whether books would exactly enable one to
find out what were the manners and customs. It.
might help a little, but one must be prepared to asso-
ciate with men and for some little time put up with
what appear to be rather strange manners and customs.
15395. You think, then, that there are misunder-
standings on both sides ?—Yes.
15396. But such a book as I suggest might help a
young man coming out first of all ?—Yes, I think it
would.
15397. It would give him some instruction, which
would be supplemented, of course, by contact with
the people of the district ?—Yes; a tactful superior
officer might put him in possession of the way in
which to do the thing much more quickly.
15398. Are the superior officers, the Commissioners
and Collectors, wanting in knowledge of the manners
and customs of the people ?—Yes, in several cases
they are, and in some cases they are very good men.
15399. Is five years long enough for any District
Officer to stay in a district ?—Yes. He perhaps may
initiate some measure or work, and if he is there for
any shorter time he never sees the end of the thing,
and his successor, who might be a young man, would
possibly drop it. I think the Magistrate should be in
a district five years in order to get to know all about
it, and take an interest in it.
15400. Ought he to be there longer than five years ?
—He should not be there longer, I think, than five
years, but he should be there as close to five years as
possible.
15401. You are of opinion that the Commissioner
should be abolished and that the Board of Revenue
should take his place ? What makes you think that
that would be a good plan ?—As a matter of fact, so
far as I know, Commissioners have not really much
to do, and the Collectors, who are both Collectors and
Magistrates, are absolutely overworked. That is one
of the drawbacks, and why they cannot be quite nice
to the people who visit them.
15402. Would the better way be first to give the
Collectors and then Commissioners greater powers of
decision in settling matters instead of being, as some
have called them, mere post offices ?—I think it would
be much better that the District Officer should not
have any judicial work to do, but should be an Execu-
tive Officer pure and simple ; that is to say, that he
should do the Collector’s work, and if he is assisted by
an Advisory Council, I think the Commissioners would
not be required as a second check, in addition to that
exercised by the Board of Revenue and the Govern-
ment.
15403. The Commission were told that a Collector
would not have sufficient experience to deal with
matters in relation to the Court of Wards, but that
the ripe experience and knowledge of a Commissioner
would be required—do you hold that view ?—I do
not think so ; if you have, as Collectors, men with
mature experience of the Service and selected men.
15404. Do the Commissioners move about much in
their divisions?—They go about, and they have a
fixed groove to go through ; they visit the district
officers and inspect hospitals and jails, and talk to a
few leading men who are introduced by the Collector ;
I do not think the Commissioner does much more than
that.
15405. Therefore, it would be better to have a
stationary officer to deal with these matters?—Yes,
and, if necessary, I would increase the number of
members of the Board of Revenue in order to do the
inspection work.
15406. Then would you have the Board of Revenue
moving about ?—Some of the members may inspect
the district offices.
15407. Are some of the districts too large for one
District Officer?—Yes. They might be split up.
Some districts as compared with others are very large
and too much scattered.
15408. Would you like to see some extra powers
given to municipalities and District Boards?—Yes,
they have already very large powers under the Act.
I have only recommended just a few, but I think they
have fairly large powers.