DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0053
BOY AL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
47
15409. Do you say that a Collector ought to super-
vise the works of the municipalities and District
Boards ?—Yes.
15410. Would you have an elected Chairman of the
District Board or municipality, and their work super-
vised by the District Officer ?—Yes, but in the case of
District Boards one should be very careful to find out
a proper non-official gentleman, because a District
Board is very different from a municipality where the
Chairman has to deal with a small area, while the Dis-
trict Board covers a very large area. I do not think
in many districts qualified non-officials, able and will-
ing to devote their time to the work, could be found.
15411. Then you would have your paid Chairman,
and the supervision of the Collector ?—That perhaps
would be better in the case of District Boards.
15412. In the case of municipalities would you have
the present arrangement again with the supervision of
the Collector?—Yes.
15413. Might something be done in the way of
instituting a system of village Councils in the various
villages ?—Would you give larger powers to the village
panchayat ?—Yes, as exist now in Madras.
15414. Would you add to the panchayat three or
foui- of the respectable men of the village ?—Yes, and
if you gave them larger powers it would be possible
to get a better class of people to become papchayats ;
as it is at present, it is hardly considered respectable
to be a panchayat, but the contrary.
15415. Is the panchayat rather open to a bribe at
the present time ?—I do not think they are very good
people who act as panchayats now ; they are too much
under the control of the police.
15416. {Mr. Hichens). Do you know that, in Cal-
cutta, the Municipality makes up its . own budget
without submitting it to the Government ?—Yes.
15417. Would you allow municipalities and District
Boards to have that power?—No, they should be able
to prepare their budget, but should submit it to the
Commissioner—that is what I think they should do,
but the power of interference of the Commissioner
should be limited. He should interfere only in large
matters.
15418. Would you have all the members of the
municipality elected ?—I think the present system is
all right—two-thirds elected, and one-third nomin-
ated.
15419. Would there be any difficulty, as far as
municipalities are concerned, in getting good men to
come forward as Chairmen ?—No difficulty at all.
15420. Is it true to say that people standing for a
municipality do so in order to get a certain amount of
prestige and perhaps patronage, and do not care much
about the work ?—They do not entirely shut their
eyes to that, but that is not the main object of their
serving.
15421. {Mr. Dutt.) Is not your proposal to abolish
Commissioners, while increasing the number of mem-
bers of the Board to permit of their doing inspection
work, tantamount to a proposal to give the Board’s
powers to Commissioners who will travel about, and
to ask them to sometimes act in consultation with each
other on important and large questions ?—The occa-
sions for that are not many.
15422. But supposing the proposal is made to keep
Commissioners, while asking them sometimes to meet
in consultation on large questions, and to abolish the
Board, what would you say?—I would rather keep
the Board.
15423. If the Lieutenant-Governor was provided
with a representative Council of two members would
it be possible to devolve larger powers to him ?—I
think it might be possible, that is to say, there would
be the same organization as in the Bombay and
Madras Presidencies.
. 15424. In that case would you recommend a devo-
lution of larger powers to the Bengal Government?—
Yes.
15425. In what respect are the village panchayats
under the control of the police ?—Practically the
police have the selection of the panchayats and the
collections are made under their supervision.
15426. If they were freed from the control of the
police would you entrust them with small criminal and
civil powers ?—Yes.
15427. As a rule do you find that the elected
members of District Boards perform their duties satis-
factorily ?—So far as my experience goes they do not.
15428. In what way would you suggest an improve-
ment ?—I think the sort of members who generally
come on to the District Boards cannot, somehow or
other, be quite independent.
15429. Have you any remedy to suggest in that
respect ?—I think membership of a District Board at
present is not very attractive to the best people,
because they think that they cannot do much on the
Board, and that the will of the District Magistrate
will prevail.
15430. Does not the law provide for the creation of
sub-committees of the different branches of work
under the District Boards ?—It does.
15431. Are sub-committees in existence on many
District Boards in Bengal ?—They exist, but I believe
that the Finance Committee is the only committee
which really meets.
15432. Does the Finance Committee prepare the
budget ?—Yes.
15433. Is there any educational sub-committee to
look after schools ?—Yes.
15434. At any rate your general idea is that the mem-
bers of the Board should act more independently?—Yes,
and the reason why they cannot act independently is
because the Magistrate has these very large powers;
and the idea prevails that it is sometimes risky to
resist his will.
15435. Are nominated members men of position
and respectability ?—They are mostly officials, such as
the Civil Surgeon and Inspector of Schools—most of
them are ex-officio.
15436. Are there not any leading men on the
Boards ?—There are just a few.
15437. Are they on the whole fairly satisfactory
men ?—They are fairly satisfactory, but I think they
go with a heavy heart, because they think that things
will be done by the Magistrate—that is the whole
idea.
15438. When they are nominated by the Govern-
ment as members of the District Board, do they lose
the respect of their countrymen ?—I do not think so.
15439. {Sir Frederic Lely). Are you a member of
a District Board yourself ?—No, I am not, but I am
Chairman of a municipality.
15440. Then you only speak with regard to District
Boards from hearsay. Are you an elected Chairman
of a municipality, or nominated?'—Elected. I am
elected both as a member, and as the Chairman.
15441. You spoke of the want of courtesy shown
by officers sometimes, and you said, personally, you
yourself had never met with anything but courtesy.
Can you mention any particular specific instance of
discourtesy to anyone else without mentioning names ?
—Yes, I know that it has been so in another district.
15442. Can you suggest what the discourtesy con-
sisted of in the cases you have known ?—A gentleman
who went to see a Magistrate made a mistake in
entering the room by one door instead of another,
and the Magistrate used insulting language to him.
15443. But was there not a chaprasi there to prevent
a mistake of that sort ?—There were chaprasies there,
but I know really of such an instance occurring in my
own district.
15444. Would you think it a useful rule to be made
by Government that at every place where a District
Officer sat to receive visitors, there should be attached
a waiting-room where any gentleman of position might
sit, as a matter of course, waiting his turn ?—Yes,
certainly it would.
15445. Would it tend to smoother intercourse
between the District Officers and the people ?—Yes,
but it mainly depends upon the man.
15446. With regard to Advisory Councils, it has
been suggested that instead of an Advisory Council,
the Collector should get into practical touch with the
chief people of his district informally ?—Yes, that is
what is now done to some extent.
Rai Kisori
Lal Goswami
Bahadur.
28 Dec.. 1907.
47
15409. Do you say that a Collector ought to super-
vise the works of the municipalities and District
Boards ?—Yes.
15410. Would you have an elected Chairman of the
District Board or municipality, and their work super-
vised by the District Officer ?—Yes, but in the case of
District Boards one should be very careful to find out
a proper non-official gentleman, because a District
Board is very different from a municipality where the
Chairman has to deal with a small area, while the Dis-
trict Board covers a very large area. I do not think
in many districts qualified non-officials, able and will-
ing to devote their time to the work, could be found.
15411. Then you would have your paid Chairman,
and the supervision of the Collector ?—That perhaps
would be better in the case of District Boards.
15412. In the case of municipalities would you have
the present arrangement again with the supervision of
the Collector?—Yes.
15413. Might something be done in the way of
instituting a system of village Councils in the various
villages ?—Would you give larger powers to the village
panchayat ?—Yes, as exist now in Madras.
15414. Would you add to the panchayat three or
foui- of the respectable men of the village ?—Yes, and
if you gave them larger powers it would be possible
to get a better class of people to become papchayats ;
as it is at present, it is hardly considered respectable
to be a panchayat, but the contrary.
15415. Is the panchayat rather open to a bribe at
the present time ?—I do not think they are very good
people who act as panchayats now ; they are too much
under the control of the police.
15416. {Mr. Hichens). Do you know that, in Cal-
cutta, the Municipality makes up its . own budget
without submitting it to the Government ?—Yes.
15417. Would you allow municipalities and District
Boards to have that power?—No, they should be able
to prepare their budget, but should submit it to the
Commissioner—that is what I think they should do,
but the power of interference of the Commissioner
should be limited. He should interfere only in large
matters.
15418. Would you have all the members of the
municipality elected ?—I think the present system is
all right—two-thirds elected, and one-third nomin-
ated.
15419. Would there be any difficulty, as far as
municipalities are concerned, in getting good men to
come forward as Chairmen ?—No difficulty at all.
15420. Is it true to say that people standing for a
municipality do so in order to get a certain amount of
prestige and perhaps patronage, and do not care much
about the work ?—They do not entirely shut their
eyes to that, but that is not the main object of their
serving.
15421. {Mr. Dutt.) Is not your proposal to abolish
Commissioners, while increasing the number of mem-
bers of the Board to permit of their doing inspection
work, tantamount to a proposal to give the Board’s
powers to Commissioners who will travel about, and
to ask them to sometimes act in consultation with each
other on important and large questions ?—The occa-
sions for that are not many.
15422. But supposing the proposal is made to keep
Commissioners, while asking them sometimes to meet
in consultation on large questions, and to abolish the
Board, what would you say?—I would rather keep
the Board.
15423. If the Lieutenant-Governor was provided
with a representative Council of two members would
it be possible to devolve larger powers to him ?—I
think it might be possible, that is to say, there would
be the same organization as in the Bombay and
Madras Presidencies.
. 15424. In that case would you recommend a devo-
lution of larger powers to the Bengal Government?—
Yes.
15425. In what respect are the village panchayats
under the control of the police ?—Practically the
police have the selection of the panchayats and the
collections are made under their supervision.
15426. If they were freed from the control of the
police would you entrust them with small criminal and
civil powers ?—Yes.
15427. As a rule do you find that the elected
members of District Boards perform their duties satis-
factorily ?—So far as my experience goes they do not.
15428. In what way would you suggest an improve-
ment ?—I think the sort of members who generally
come on to the District Boards cannot, somehow or
other, be quite independent.
15429. Have you any remedy to suggest in that
respect ?—I think membership of a District Board at
present is not very attractive to the best people,
because they think that they cannot do much on the
Board, and that the will of the District Magistrate
will prevail.
15430. Does not the law provide for the creation of
sub-committees of the different branches of work
under the District Boards ?—It does.
15431. Are sub-committees in existence on many
District Boards in Bengal ?—They exist, but I believe
that the Finance Committee is the only committee
which really meets.
15432. Does the Finance Committee prepare the
budget ?—Yes.
15433. Is there any educational sub-committee to
look after schools ?—Yes.
15434. At any rate your general idea is that the mem-
bers of the Board should act more independently?—Yes,
and the reason why they cannot act independently is
because the Magistrate has these very large powers;
and the idea prevails that it is sometimes risky to
resist his will.
15435. Are nominated members men of position
and respectability ?—They are mostly officials, such as
the Civil Surgeon and Inspector of Schools—most of
them are ex-officio.
15436. Are there not any leading men on the
Boards ?—There are just a few.
15437. Are they on the whole fairly satisfactory
men ?—They are fairly satisfactory, but I think they
go with a heavy heart, because they think that things
will be done by the Magistrate—that is the whole
idea.
15438. When they are nominated by the Govern-
ment as members of the District Board, do they lose
the respect of their countrymen ?—I do not think so.
15439. {Sir Frederic Lely). Are you a member of
a District Board yourself ?—No, I am not, but I am
Chairman of a municipality.
15440. Then you only speak with regard to District
Boards from hearsay. Are you an elected Chairman
of a municipality, or nominated?'—Elected. I am
elected both as a member, and as the Chairman.
15441. You spoke of the want of courtesy shown
by officers sometimes, and you said, personally, you
yourself had never met with anything but courtesy.
Can you mention any particular specific instance of
discourtesy to anyone else without mentioning names ?
—Yes, I know that it has been so in another district.
15442. Can you suggest what the discourtesy con-
sisted of in the cases you have known ?—A gentleman
who went to see a Magistrate made a mistake in
entering the room by one door instead of another,
and the Magistrate used insulting language to him.
15443. But was there not a chaprasi there to prevent
a mistake of that sort ?—There were chaprasies there,
but I know really of such an instance occurring in my
own district.
15444. Would you think it a useful rule to be made
by Government that at every place where a District
Officer sat to receive visitors, there should be attached
a waiting-room where any gentleman of position might
sit, as a matter of course, waiting his turn ?—Yes,
certainly it would.
15445. Would it tend to smoother intercourse
between the District Officers and the people ?—Yes,
but it mainly depends upon the man.
15446. With regard to Advisory Councils, it has
been suggested that instead of an Advisory Council,
the Collector should get into practical touch with the
chief people of his district informally ?—Yes, that is
what is now done to some extent.
Rai Kisori
Lal Goswami
Bahadur.
28 Dec.. 1907.