DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0054
48
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
15447. You say that the District Officers should call
meetings of the Council as often as they might deem
necessary to consider such subjects as they might think
proper ?—Yes.
15448. Then would it not come to pretty much the
same thing as now ?—No, a regular constitution would
rather oblige Collectors, I think, to refer to these
Councils. I have suggested merely to start the thing ;
it might be developed later on if it is found that it
works well.
15449. Would you have compulsory and regularly
fixed times, with compulsory subjects ?—Yes.
15450. On the other hand would it not take away
very much from the cordiality and sincerity of the
intercourse between the District Officers and the
people ?—I do not think so.
15451. Supposing a Collector wanted to get the
opinion of the people on a certain subject and sent for
a representative of the people, would he not consider
it rather an honour to be personally selected for con-
sultation ?—Yes.
15452. There would not be that kind of feeling in
the case of an Advisory Council, would there ?—Yes,
I think the members of an Advisory Council would
consider it an honour to be members of it.
15453. It would not be considered an honour as
between them and the Collector ; there would not be
the personal feeling of friendship or pleasant acquain-
tanceship that is implied when a Collector sends for a
gentleman, and has some private talk with him for his
own information ?—But in the case of an Advisory
Council it is not necessary that all the members should
meet, except to discuss important questions ; in other
matters particular members of the Advisory Council
might be asked for their opinions.
15454. Would you leave such a course as that to the
discretion of the Collector ?—Yes, but if he has some
such official status as a member of the Advisory
Council, I think a gentleman would be better treated
by the Magistrate.
15455. You say that a District Officer should not,
without special sanction, do a thing which is opposed
to the views of two-thirds of the members of the
Council ; but supposing one view of the members
was that income-tax should not be collected, ought the
Collector to refrain from collecting it ?—But that
would be against the law ; that cannot be done, or
anything else, against the special orders of the Govern-
ment.
15456. (Sir Steyning Edgerley'). If you have a
Governor in Council, as your suggestion is, why do
you also want a Board of Revenue ?—The Board of
Revenue is also under Government, but with larger
powers delegated to it.
15457. Then practically the Governor in Council,
suggested by you, would administer territorially; next
you would have an authority which would administer
by subjects, as the Board of Revenue at present does ;
and then you would go back to the territorial principle
for the administration of the divisions and districts ?—
Yes.
15458. Do you think that the inspection of a
province by a Board of Revenue would be at all
adequate ?—I think so.
15459. Then you suggest various Advisory Councils
and Village Councils, but your Advisory Council is
not at all the same, as was suggested by the last
witness ?—No, it is not.
15460. Would it be well to try more than one kind
of Council, or would you only try your own propo-
sition ?—I would rather like to try my suggestion,
because I think people would feel more interested.
15461. Your particular Council would make a pretty
fair District Board ?—It would be something like it.
15462. Why should you have both an Advisory
Council like that and a District Board?—The District
Board is engaged in doing a particular kind of work
only.
15463. But you could enlarge its functions ? If
you are going to create anything by legislation, you
could make the District Board into a larger and wider
body ?—If that is done, it would practically come to
the same thing.
15464. Would you then be content with one Board ?
—Yes.
15465. Would you have legislation specific, or would
you have it sufficiently elastic to allow of modification
by rule ?—I would have it by rule in matters Of detail
in conformity with the main principles embodied in
the body of the specific legislation.
15466. Would there be any objection in the case of
experiments in regard to these Councils to having a
very wide rule making power?—No.
15467. You say that the Head of the district should
be a purely Executive Officer relieved of all magisterial
duties,1 and you say the same of the Sub-Divisional
Magistrates simply as to Court work ?—Yes.
15468. Any Magistrate has very important powers
which he exercises outside the Court, such, for instance,
as the control of the investigation of crime, and the
prevention of crime ?—Yes, but not judicially.
15469. You would not relieve him of that work ?—
No.
15470. (Mr. Meyer). With regard to the control by
the Government of India over the provincial Govern-
ment, do you desire that purely in the interests of
uniformity as between one province and another?—
No. I do not attach importance to that.
15471. Do you think these provinces are quite
separate entities, or do you recognise that there is
some common national Indian feeling amongst them ?
■—I think it is coming to that.
15472. Are not the provincial boundaries rather
artificial ?—They are.
15473. From that point of view, might not the con-
trol of a central Government be necessary ?—But even
in the case of a Governor and an Executive Council,
the control of the central Government would not be
entirely taken away.
15474. Do you consider that the control of the
central Government is essential in any case for India ?
—Yes.
15475. And there is a certain amount of control
exercised by the Secretary of State over the Govern-
ment of India ?—Yes.
15476. Just as the Government of India has control
over the Local Government, should the Secretary of
State control the Government of India ?—Yes.
15477. You say that you wish to relieve the Collector
of magisterial case work, and that you also wish to
relieve him of the District Board work in some cases?
Would he not then sink into a mere Collector of
revenue?—No, he would have the power of super-
vision, because if there is no Commissioner he would
possess those functions.
15478. But will he not be taken further away from
the people if he stands outside and supervises the
District Board, than if he was intimately concerned
in dealing with projects relating to roads and sanitation
and other matters ?—But he would be bound to tour
in the district, and he would carefully watch all the
proceedings just the same as is done by the Commis-
sioners now.
15479. In that case would it not be just as easy to
let him preside over the District Board?'—It is not
easy to find an unpaid non-official gentleman to do the
work of Chairman, but if the judicial power is taken
away from the Collector perhaps people will venture to
be more independent. As it is, I think the members
of the District Boards are much less independent than
they should be.
15480. Do you seriously tell us that the members of
District Boards are afraid of being brought to book by
the Collector?—No, but there is a feeling that they
are not independent.
15481. And you think that that feeling will not
exist if the Collector ceases to be District Magistrate,
and that he might then safely be Chairman of the
District Board ?—He has so much work to do that
any relief in that way will be very desirable.
15482. Is your municipality a large one ?—It is a
fairly large one, with a population of 45,000.
15483. Most of the matters as to which you have to
go to Government for control arfe disposed of by the
Commissioner, such as with regard to 'your budget and
so on ?—Yes. We very rarely have to go to the Local
Government.
Rai Kisori
Lal Goswaml
Bahadur.
28 Dec., 1907.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
15447. You say that the District Officers should call
meetings of the Council as often as they might deem
necessary to consider such subjects as they might think
proper ?—Yes.
15448. Then would it not come to pretty much the
same thing as now ?—No, a regular constitution would
rather oblige Collectors, I think, to refer to these
Councils. I have suggested merely to start the thing ;
it might be developed later on if it is found that it
works well.
15449. Would you have compulsory and regularly
fixed times, with compulsory subjects ?—Yes.
15450. On the other hand would it not take away
very much from the cordiality and sincerity of the
intercourse between the District Officers and the
people ?—I do not think so.
15451. Supposing a Collector wanted to get the
opinion of the people on a certain subject and sent for
a representative of the people, would he not consider
it rather an honour to be personally selected for con-
sultation ?—Yes.
15452. There would not be that kind of feeling in
the case of an Advisory Council, would there ?—Yes,
I think the members of an Advisory Council would
consider it an honour to be members of it.
15453. It would not be considered an honour as
between them and the Collector ; there would not be
the personal feeling of friendship or pleasant acquain-
tanceship that is implied when a Collector sends for a
gentleman, and has some private talk with him for his
own information ?—But in the case of an Advisory
Council it is not necessary that all the members should
meet, except to discuss important questions ; in other
matters particular members of the Advisory Council
might be asked for their opinions.
15454. Would you leave such a course as that to the
discretion of the Collector ?—Yes, but if he has some
such official status as a member of the Advisory
Council, I think a gentleman would be better treated
by the Magistrate.
15455. You say that a District Officer should not,
without special sanction, do a thing which is opposed
to the views of two-thirds of the members of the
Council ; but supposing one view of the members
was that income-tax should not be collected, ought the
Collector to refrain from collecting it ?—But that
would be against the law ; that cannot be done, or
anything else, against the special orders of the Govern-
ment.
15456. (Sir Steyning Edgerley'). If you have a
Governor in Council, as your suggestion is, why do
you also want a Board of Revenue ?—The Board of
Revenue is also under Government, but with larger
powers delegated to it.
15457. Then practically the Governor in Council,
suggested by you, would administer territorially; next
you would have an authority which would administer
by subjects, as the Board of Revenue at present does ;
and then you would go back to the territorial principle
for the administration of the divisions and districts ?—
Yes.
15458. Do you think that the inspection of a
province by a Board of Revenue would be at all
adequate ?—I think so.
15459. Then you suggest various Advisory Councils
and Village Councils, but your Advisory Council is
not at all the same, as was suggested by the last
witness ?—No, it is not.
15460. Would it be well to try more than one kind
of Council, or would you only try your own propo-
sition ?—I would rather like to try my suggestion,
because I think people would feel more interested.
15461. Your particular Council would make a pretty
fair District Board ?—It would be something like it.
15462. Why should you have both an Advisory
Council like that and a District Board?—The District
Board is engaged in doing a particular kind of work
only.
15463. But you could enlarge its functions ? If
you are going to create anything by legislation, you
could make the District Board into a larger and wider
body ?—If that is done, it would practically come to
the same thing.
15464. Would you then be content with one Board ?
—Yes.
15465. Would you have legislation specific, or would
you have it sufficiently elastic to allow of modification
by rule ?—I would have it by rule in matters Of detail
in conformity with the main principles embodied in
the body of the specific legislation.
15466. Would there be any objection in the case of
experiments in regard to these Councils to having a
very wide rule making power?—No.
15467. You say that the Head of the district should
be a purely Executive Officer relieved of all magisterial
duties,1 and you say the same of the Sub-Divisional
Magistrates simply as to Court work ?—Yes.
15468. Any Magistrate has very important powers
which he exercises outside the Court, such, for instance,
as the control of the investigation of crime, and the
prevention of crime ?—Yes, but not judicially.
15469. You would not relieve him of that work ?—
No.
15470. (Mr. Meyer). With regard to the control by
the Government of India over the provincial Govern-
ment, do you desire that purely in the interests of
uniformity as between one province and another?—
No. I do not attach importance to that.
15471. Do you think these provinces are quite
separate entities, or do you recognise that there is
some common national Indian feeling amongst them ?
■—I think it is coming to that.
15472. Are not the provincial boundaries rather
artificial ?—They are.
15473. From that point of view, might not the con-
trol of a central Government be necessary ?—But even
in the case of a Governor and an Executive Council,
the control of the central Government would not be
entirely taken away.
15474. Do you consider that the control of the
central Government is essential in any case for India ?
—Yes.
15475. And there is a certain amount of control
exercised by the Secretary of State over the Govern-
ment of India ?—Yes.
15476. Just as the Government of India has control
over the Local Government, should the Secretary of
State control the Government of India ?—Yes.
15477. You say that you wish to relieve the Collector
of magisterial case work, and that you also wish to
relieve him of the District Board work in some cases?
Would he not then sink into a mere Collector of
revenue?—No, he would have the power of super-
vision, because if there is no Commissioner he would
possess those functions.
15478. But will he not be taken further away from
the people if he stands outside and supervises the
District Board, than if he was intimately concerned
in dealing with projects relating to roads and sanitation
and other matters ?—But he would be bound to tour
in the district, and he would carefully watch all the
proceedings just the same as is done by the Commis-
sioners now.
15479. In that case would it not be just as easy to
let him preside over the District Board?'—It is not
easy to find an unpaid non-official gentleman to do the
work of Chairman, but if the judicial power is taken
away from the Collector perhaps people will venture to
be more independent. As it is, I think the members
of the District Boards are much less independent than
they should be.
15480. Do you seriously tell us that the members of
District Boards are afraid of being brought to book by
the Collector?—No, but there is a feeling that they
are not independent.
15481. And you think that that feeling will not
exist if the Collector ceases to be District Magistrate,
and that he might then safely be Chairman of the
District Board ?—He has so much work to do that
any relief in that way will be very desirable.
15482. Is your municipality a large one ?—It is a
fairly large one, with a population of 45,000.
15483. Most of the matters as to which you have to
go to Government for control arfe disposed of by the
Commissioner, such as with regard to 'your budget and
so on ?—Yes. We very rarely have to go to the Local
Government.
Rai Kisori
Lal Goswaml
Bahadur.
28 Dec., 1907.