DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0057
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
51
15529. Has it also happened that officers who have
had all their training in Bengal, say for 10 or 12 years,
have been transferred to Orissa ?—Yes, very often.
15530. In that case those officers could scarcely
have much influence in the country ?—They have no
influence, and what is worse, they have no insight into
the peculiar conditions of life there.
15531. That is to say, Orissa in all respects is a
totally different province from Bengal ?—In many
respects it is totally different, and special administra-
tive provisions should be enforced.
15532. Does the work in Orissa require altogether a
different training from the work in Bengal ?—Yes, it
does.
15533. Is the land system in Orissa different ?—
Yes, and the law of inheritance is different; we live
under the Mitalcshara law and Bengal is under the
Uaydbhaga law.
15534. On the whole, would you say that Orissa
owing to its connection with Bengal, has been forced
more or less into a foreign groove ?—Yes. For
instance, in the Legislative Council we are coupled
with a Bengal division, and are only represented by
one member, and since the introduction of the repre-
sentative principle in the Legislative Council there
has only twice been a native of Orissa on the Council,
and he had to represent Orissa and Chota Nagpur.
15535. Would you also suggest any change in area
so as to make a homogeneous territory ?—Yes, I would
suggest that the Uriya-speaking tract should be under
one Local Administration. In the present adminis-
trative adjustment the Uriya-speaking population is
distributed amongst three Local Governments, which
is injurious from every point of view.
15536. Do you think that a Commissioner endowed
with powers such as those of the Commissioner of
Sind would be sufficient to meet the case ?—Yes.
15537. You would not advocate tbe Constitution of
a Chief Commissionership, on terms totally indepen-
dent of Bengal ?—I would advocate a Chief Com-
missionership, if it would not interfere with the
jurisdiction of the High Court.
15538 Otherwise would you wish for a Chief Com-
missionership ? The area would be scarcely big enough
fora Chief Commissionership, would it?—I have no
idea what the requisite area is for a Chief Com-
missionership.
15539. Is your village existence rather different
from that in Bengal ?—Yes.
15540. Is the village system more established in
your case?—Yes, there is still a headman of the
village who is recognised.
15541. And the village constitution exists to a
certain extent ?—Yes, for purposes of private life.
15542. (Sir Steyning Edgerley). If you had a Com-
missionership with the status you suggest in Orissa,
you would, I assume, oust the jurisdiction of the
Board of Revenue ?—-Yes.
15543. Would you suggest that the Act of 1868
should be somewhat modified ?—Yes, with regard to
powers that ought to be delegated.
15544. Do you mean that it should be confined to a
certain sphere of delegation ?—A certain sphere of
delegation may be necessary to be taken into con-
sideration.
15545. Would there be likely to be any complaints
about an Act of that sort in Orissa?—If it were
exactly on the lines of general delegation without
specification, there might be some objection. But as
regards a Chief Commissionership, though there was
a difference of opinion, the majority were in favour
of it when it was discussed.
15546. Would the majority acquiesce in such an
Act?—Yes.
15547. Supposing the Act contained the safeguard
that, before the provisions were exercised, a pro-
visional notification should be issued inviting objection,
would thai be an efficient safeguard ?—That would
be an efficient safeguard.
15548. If you have a Commissionership of that sort,
all such questions as the Board of Revenue inter-
fering with Court of Wards’ estates, and so on, would
vanish ?—Quite so.
33263
15549. From your experience as Vice-Chairman of
the District Board, do you think that if the collector Madhusuaan
gives a vice-chairman an absolutely free hand, keeping
the ultimate control in his own hands, but simply gg -^e(j 1907
watching what his vice-chairman is doing, that is a _" '
bad system for the purposes of political education ?—
I think that would not be at all a bad system.
15550. And under your existing Act it is possible
for any Collector to do that ?—Yes.
15551. (Air. Meyer.) Are Chairmen of Local Boards
usually elected in Bengal ?—Yes.
15552. And the Vice-Chairman of the Board too ?—
He is also elected.
15553. Your Local Board has very small powers?
—It has no powers, or yery little, and that is why
they do no work, or are never considered as doing
any work ; but the truth is that they are given no
opportunity to do it.
15554. In Madras the Sub-Divisional Boards have
a considerable amount of work in connection with
roads, vaccination, and so forth—would it be a good
thing to devolve like powers on your Boards in
Bengal?—It would be. a very good thing if the
District Board were more of a supervising body.
15555. Did the Collector who left you a free hand
as Vice-Chairman of the Board and who never attended
a meeting for two years, take an interest in the matters
dealt with ?—Very great.
15556. That is to say, although he did not attend
meetings in person, he was there in spirit, as it were ?
—Yes.
15557. Would a Collector usually take as much
interest in such matters if he merely came in from
outside as a checking officer, as if he presided over the
meetings and attended the discussions of the Board ?
—The difficulty is, of course, with the Collector, and
whether he wants to encourage Local Self-Government.
If he happens to be a person who does not like the idea
of it, he would not delegate the power, and that is the
difficulty.
15558. Is not the Collector likely to get to know
more of the actual needs of a district in respect to
education, sanitation, and roads if he attends the
meetings of the District Board as Chairman than if,
as in the way you propose, he sits outside and only
intervenes when he thinks the Board is going wrong ?
—Yes, he is likely to know more, but there are very
often a number of people who are quasi - officially
connected with him who give their opinions whichever
way they imagine will please the Magistrate.
15559. Is not that tendency disappearing ; is it not
the case now that gentlemen like yourself speak their
minds freely ?—It is disappearing, no doubt.
15560. I suppose you have heard something as to
the proposals to have District Boards elected by classes
of persons ?—Yes.
15561. Do you think that is a good idea ?—Yes, it
would be better than the present arrangement.
15562. In the villages in Orissa is the chaukidari
panchayat union necessary ? If you have a natural
village do you want an artificial grouping of villages
into a chaukidari panchayat ?—A grouping of villages
into a chaukidari panchayat is necessary for the
chaukidari management.
15563. Are your villages grouped together for chau-
kidari purposes ?—Yes. Several distinct villages are
so grouped.
15564. Would you prefer the Madras system by
which each village maintains its own watchman ?—
But sometimes you may have a village too small and
there may be no respectable man in one village,
whereas, if you were to tike two or three together,
you could get a respectable man.
15565. Respectable men are not chaukidars ?—The
Madras system is to put the chaukidar under the
village headman; have you a village headman in
Orissa?—We have a village headman, but there are
some villages where no high class men live, and con-
sequently you could not have a panchayat out of that
village.
15566. You might have a low class headman ?—Of
course if the village were left to itself and left to
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51
15529. Has it also happened that officers who have
had all their training in Bengal, say for 10 or 12 years,
have been transferred to Orissa ?—Yes, very often.
15530. In that case those officers could scarcely
have much influence in the country ?—They have no
influence, and what is worse, they have no insight into
the peculiar conditions of life there.
15531. That is to say, Orissa in all respects is a
totally different province from Bengal ?—In many
respects it is totally different, and special administra-
tive provisions should be enforced.
15532. Does the work in Orissa require altogether a
different training from the work in Bengal ?—Yes, it
does.
15533. Is the land system in Orissa different ?—
Yes, and the law of inheritance is different; we live
under the Mitalcshara law and Bengal is under the
Uaydbhaga law.
15534. On the whole, would you say that Orissa
owing to its connection with Bengal, has been forced
more or less into a foreign groove ?—Yes. For
instance, in the Legislative Council we are coupled
with a Bengal division, and are only represented by
one member, and since the introduction of the repre-
sentative principle in the Legislative Council there
has only twice been a native of Orissa on the Council,
and he had to represent Orissa and Chota Nagpur.
15535. Would you also suggest any change in area
so as to make a homogeneous territory ?—Yes, I would
suggest that the Uriya-speaking tract should be under
one Local Administration. In the present adminis-
trative adjustment the Uriya-speaking population is
distributed amongst three Local Governments, which
is injurious from every point of view.
15536. Do you think that a Commissioner endowed
with powers such as those of the Commissioner of
Sind would be sufficient to meet the case ?—Yes.
15537. You would not advocate tbe Constitution of
a Chief Commissionership, on terms totally indepen-
dent of Bengal ?—I would advocate a Chief Com-
missionership, if it would not interfere with the
jurisdiction of the High Court.
15538 Otherwise would you wish for a Chief Com-
missionership ? The area would be scarcely big enough
fora Chief Commissionership, would it?—I have no
idea what the requisite area is for a Chief Com-
missionership.
15539. Is your village existence rather different
from that in Bengal ?—Yes.
15540. Is the village system more established in
your case?—Yes, there is still a headman of the
village who is recognised.
15541. And the village constitution exists to a
certain extent ?—Yes, for purposes of private life.
15542. (Sir Steyning Edgerley). If you had a Com-
missionership with the status you suggest in Orissa,
you would, I assume, oust the jurisdiction of the
Board of Revenue ?—-Yes.
15543. Would you suggest that the Act of 1868
should be somewhat modified ?—Yes, with regard to
powers that ought to be delegated.
15544. Do you mean that it should be confined to a
certain sphere of delegation ?—A certain sphere of
delegation may be necessary to be taken into con-
sideration.
15545. Would there be likely to be any complaints
about an Act of that sort in Orissa?—If it were
exactly on the lines of general delegation without
specification, there might be some objection. But as
regards a Chief Commissionership, though there was
a difference of opinion, the majority were in favour
of it when it was discussed.
15546. Would the majority acquiesce in such an
Act?—Yes.
15547. Supposing the Act contained the safeguard
that, before the provisions were exercised, a pro-
visional notification should be issued inviting objection,
would thai be an efficient safeguard ?—That would
be an efficient safeguard.
15548. If you have a Commissionership of that sort,
all such questions as the Board of Revenue inter-
fering with Court of Wards’ estates, and so on, would
vanish ?—Quite so.
33263
15549. From your experience as Vice-Chairman of
the District Board, do you think that if the collector Madhusuaan
gives a vice-chairman an absolutely free hand, keeping
the ultimate control in his own hands, but simply gg -^e(j 1907
watching what his vice-chairman is doing, that is a _" '
bad system for the purposes of political education ?—
I think that would not be at all a bad system.
15550. And under your existing Act it is possible
for any Collector to do that ?—Yes.
15551. (Air. Meyer.) Are Chairmen of Local Boards
usually elected in Bengal ?—Yes.
15552. And the Vice-Chairman of the Board too ?—
He is also elected.
15553. Your Local Board has very small powers?
—It has no powers, or yery little, and that is why
they do no work, or are never considered as doing
any work ; but the truth is that they are given no
opportunity to do it.
15554. In Madras the Sub-Divisional Boards have
a considerable amount of work in connection with
roads, vaccination, and so forth—would it be a good
thing to devolve like powers on your Boards in
Bengal?—It would be. a very good thing if the
District Board were more of a supervising body.
15555. Did the Collector who left you a free hand
as Vice-Chairman of the Board and who never attended
a meeting for two years, take an interest in the matters
dealt with ?—Very great.
15556. That is to say, although he did not attend
meetings in person, he was there in spirit, as it were ?
—Yes.
15557. Would a Collector usually take as much
interest in such matters if he merely came in from
outside as a checking officer, as if he presided over the
meetings and attended the discussions of the Board ?
—The difficulty is, of course, with the Collector, and
whether he wants to encourage Local Self-Government.
If he happens to be a person who does not like the idea
of it, he would not delegate the power, and that is the
difficulty.
15558. Is not the Collector likely to get to know
more of the actual needs of a district in respect to
education, sanitation, and roads if he attends the
meetings of the District Board as Chairman than if,
as in the way you propose, he sits outside and only
intervenes when he thinks the Board is going wrong ?
—Yes, he is likely to know more, but there are very
often a number of people who are quasi - officially
connected with him who give their opinions whichever
way they imagine will please the Magistrate.
15559. Is not that tendency disappearing ; is it not
the case now that gentlemen like yourself speak their
minds freely ?—It is disappearing, no doubt.
15560. I suppose you have heard something as to
the proposals to have District Boards elected by classes
of persons ?—Yes.
15561. Do you think that is a good idea ?—Yes, it
would be better than the present arrangement.
15562. In the villages in Orissa is the chaukidari
panchayat union necessary ? If you have a natural
village do you want an artificial grouping of villages
into a chaukidari panchayat ?—A grouping of villages
into a chaukidari panchayat is necessary for the
chaukidari management.
15563. Are your villages grouped together for chau-
kidari purposes ?—Yes. Several distinct villages are
so grouped.
15564. Would you prefer the Madras system by
which each village maintains its own watchman ?—
But sometimes you may have a village too small and
there may be no respectable man in one village,
whereas, if you were to tike two or three together,
you could get a respectable man.
15565. Respectable men are not chaukidars ?—The
Madras system is to put the chaukidar under the
village headman; have you a village headman in
Orissa?—We have a village headman, but there are
some villages where no high class men live, and con-
sequently you could not have a panchayat out of that
village.
15566. You might have a low class headman ?—Of
course if the village were left to itself and left to
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