DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0061
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
55
15635. Would that apply even for the purpose of
settling soaae small money dispute between two
villages?—They have that power now, and that is
done. The only thing that could be done in addition
is that the local officers might encourage them to
settle such disputes.
15636. Is there any legal power to settle such a
dispute, or is it done by agreement ?—It is done by
arrangement. When once matters are referred to
arbitration, or the disputes are so settled, they are
taken on to the nearest Court, and the settlement is
given legal effect to.
15637. Under the present system do disputants and
witnesses often have to go long distances in order
that some trivial legal point might be settled ?—-There
may be places where that is the case, but the incon-
venience is not very much felt, and even in places
where it is felt, the chances are that the people
would prefer it very much to having any power
given to their own men, because they would very
likely not get anything like justice in the latter case,
and the whole thing would end in disaster. I think it
would multiply litigation and add ten times to the
expense.
15638. Are the members of the present village
panchayat satisfactory ?—Yes, I think so. They are
the best available ; one of the reasons for not secur-
ing a better class of men is that most of the young
people leave the villages and go to the nearest towns.
A man in a village who has made a little money sends
his children for education to the nearest town, where
they grow up and naturally do not like to take to
village life again. Therefore, slowly and gradually
the villages are losing their best men,4and the remain-
ing people are reduced to a somewhat lower class.
15639. Speaking generally, are village communities
decaying ?—-I do not sry that, but they are certainly
fewer than they were.
15640. (Sir Steyning Edgerley). What do you mean
by establishing local Advisory Councils on similar lines
to provincial Advisory Councils ; do you mean that
they should be entirely nominated ?—No, there may
be some election and some nomination.
15641. Assuming for the moment that they have to
be nominated, are you in favour of having them
wholly nominated ?—Absolutely.
15642. By whom ?—By the Collector of the district
or the Commissioner of the division.
15643. (Mr. Meyer.) Would these Councils be
purely advisory ? Supposing the Collector differed
from the Council, would he act on his own responsi-
bility ?—Absolutely. What I suggest is that the
Council should be called upon for their advice only,
and that questions of dispute may be placed before
them for their opinion.
15644. If he had to report to a higher authority,
would you have him say in his report that his Advi-
sory Council entertained a different view from his ?—
Quite so.
15645. It has been suggested that the Collector
should be relieved of the post of Chairman of the
District Board, and that some different official should
hold it ; would you approve of that ?—No. In some
places it might be advisable and in others not.
15646. So as to bring him in direct communication
with the needs of the district in regard to roads,
communications, and so forth ?—Yes/ but in places
where there are non-official Chairmen available £
would certainly have them if you can get good men.
15647. Would it be a good thing to have the Col-
lector dissociated from the control of roads and so
on ?—Certainly not.
15648. Would you have him exercising control from
outside ?—Yes, where necessary.
15649. Would that be as good as his taking a part
in the discussions of the Board ?—It might be.
15650. You say that the small municipalities should
not be under the control of District Boards, but
should be left to develop independently. In Bengal
are there not a number of municipalities which are
not towns at all, but Ore only a collection of villages ?
—There is room for improvement in them.
15651. Might they not come under the District
Board control ?—I should think not.
15652. Have you any real village community in
Bengal ?—I use the expression “ village community ”
from my experience in the district I come from, and
where I have lived in the village.
15653. But there is no corporate civil life, as there
is in southern India?—No. The village community,
in that sense, is not in existence either in Eastern
Bengal or Bengal.
15654. And the only substitute is this artificial
form called a chaukidari union ?—Quite so.
Nawab Abdur
Rahman.
28 Dee., 1907,
15655. (Mr. Hichens.) Do you want an Advisory
Council both for the Collector and the Commissioner ?
—I should leave that absolutely to the discretion of
the Local Government. There are places where one
local Advisory Council in a division would be ample,
but there might be other places where there are
sufficient prominent and educated men, and where
local officers might require their aid and help. What
is wanted is that Commissioners and Collectors
should invariably consult all the leading men on
matters of importance.
15656. Is that all you want ?—Yes, that is all I
want, but having regard to the aspirations of the
people and the feeling that they should have a better
voice and more privilege in advising Government or
taking part in local matters, I do not think there is
any harm if local Advisory Councils are constituted in
a cautious manner.
15657. In practice does the good Collector to-day
get all the advice and does he do all the consulting
that is necessary ?—Certainly.
15658. Would the formal appointment of Councils
be merely sentiment ?—Not exactly. I think it might
educate the people in some places, and it would be
useful in the way of inducing them to take more
interest in public matters.
15659. Then might you have a chaukidari union, a
Local Board, a District Board, and in addition an
Advisory Council all in one district, and that on the
top of that you would have an Advisory Council for a
province, and an Advisory Council for the Government
of India ?—Yes.
15660. Would that not be rather a plethora of
Advisory Councils ?—As it is, in my opinion, there are
too many such things already, but when you have too
many, there is no harm in having one more, and there
may be places where there is no harm in trying the
experiment, which might perhaps result in good.
15661. You would not make the District Board an
Advisory Council, would you ?—No, because there are
men on the District Board or on municipalities who
are a different class of men from those to whom I, for
one, or the Collector of the district, would look for
advice.
15662. It has been represented that if a Collector
had an Advisory Council, and consulted that Council,
he would feel more or less free in regard to consulting
anybody else ; do you think that would be so, and
would it be a good thing if it were so ?—No. I would
continue the present system on which administration
is carried on, and the better class of people, who are
sensible, responsible men, should be entitled to advise
on a particular subject, and, their advice ought to be
invariably sought. I think that class of people should
be encouraged. They are people who do not want to
come to the District Boards or municipalities, but at
the same time there would not be any harm in consti-
tuting a Council and getting them to take a greater
interest in it.
15663. Would the formation of Advisory Councils
tend to the exclusion of other people competent to
give advice ?—I think not.
15664. Are there districts which you think are not
fit for the creation of Advisory Councils, and there
are other districts which are ?—Yes.
15665. (Mr. Dutt). Do you advocate that there
should be two Advisory Councils in one district ?—I
did not mean that ; what I meant was that in some
districts an Advisory Council might be necessary, or
that in some divisions there might be Advisory Councils.
It might be that we might have a Divisional Advisory
Council and Advisory Councils in districts.
15666. When these Councils are created you say
that they should be consulted on questions of legisla-
tion. Do you mean that when, a new Bill.is drafted
55
15635. Would that apply even for the purpose of
settling soaae small money dispute between two
villages?—They have that power now, and that is
done. The only thing that could be done in addition
is that the local officers might encourage them to
settle such disputes.
15636. Is there any legal power to settle such a
dispute, or is it done by agreement ?—It is done by
arrangement. When once matters are referred to
arbitration, or the disputes are so settled, they are
taken on to the nearest Court, and the settlement is
given legal effect to.
15637. Under the present system do disputants and
witnesses often have to go long distances in order
that some trivial legal point might be settled ?—-There
may be places where that is the case, but the incon-
venience is not very much felt, and even in places
where it is felt, the chances are that the people
would prefer it very much to having any power
given to their own men, because they would very
likely not get anything like justice in the latter case,
and the whole thing would end in disaster. I think it
would multiply litigation and add ten times to the
expense.
15638. Are the members of the present village
panchayat satisfactory ?—Yes, I think so. They are
the best available ; one of the reasons for not secur-
ing a better class of men is that most of the young
people leave the villages and go to the nearest towns.
A man in a village who has made a little money sends
his children for education to the nearest town, where
they grow up and naturally do not like to take to
village life again. Therefore, slowly and gradually
the villages are losing their best men,4and the remain-
ing people are reduced to a somewhat lower class.
15639. Speaking generally, are village communities
decaying ?—-I do not sry that, but they are certainly
fewer than they were.
15640. (Sir Steyning Edgerley). What do you mean
by establishing local Advisory Councils on similar lines
to provincial Advisory Councils ; do you mean that
they should be entirely nominated ?—No, there may
be some election and some nomination.
15641. Assuming for the moment that they have to
be nominated, are you in favour of having them
wholly nominated ?—Absolutely.
15642. By whom ?—By the Collector of the district
or the Commissioner of the division.
15643. (Mr. Meyer.) Would these Councils be
purely advisory ? Supposing the Collector differed
from the Council, would he act on his own responsi-
bility ?—Absolutely. What I suggest is that the
Council should be called upon for their advice only,
and that questions of dispute may be placed before
them for their opinion.
15644. If he had to report to a higher authority,
would you have him say in his report that his Advi-
sory Council entertained a different view from his ?—
Quite so.
15645. It has been suggested that the Collector
should be relieved of the post of Chairman of the
District Board, and that some different official should
hold it ; would you approve of that ?—No. In some
places it might be advisable and in others not.
15646. So as to bring him in direct communication
with the needs of the district in regard to roads,
communications, and so forth ?—Yes/ but in places
where there are non-official Chairmen available £
would certainly have them if you can get good men.
15647. Would it be a good thing to have the Col-
lector dissociated from the control of roads and so
on ?—Certainly not.
15648. Would you have him exercising control from
outside ?—Yes, where necessary.
15649. Would that be as good as his taking a part
in the discussions of the Board ?—It might be.
15650. You say that the small municipalities should
not be under the control of District Boards, but
should be left to develop independently. In Bengal
are there not a number of municipalities which are
not towns at all, but Ore only a collection of villages ?
—There is room for improvement in them.
15651. Might they not come under the District
Board control ?—I should think not.
15652. Have you any real village community in
Bengal ?—I use the expression “ village community ”
from my experience in the district I come from, and
where I have lived in the village.
15653. But there is no corporate civil life, as there
is in southern India?—No. The village community,
in that sense, is not in existence either in Eastern
Bengal or Bengal.
15654. And the only substitute is this artificial
form called a chaukidari union ?—Quite so.
Nawab Abdur
Rahman.
28 Dee., 1907,
15655. (Mr. Hichens.) Do you want an Advisory
Council both for the Collector and the Commissioner ?
—I should leave that absolutely to the discretion of
the Local Government. There are places where one
local Advisory Council in a division would be ample,
but there might be other places where there are
sufficient prominent and educated men, and where
local officers might require their aid and help. What
is wanted is that Commissioners and Collectors
should invariably consult all the leading men on
matters of importance.
15656. Is that all you want ?—Yes, that is all I
want, but having regard to the aspirations of the
people and the feeling that they should have a better
voice and more privilege in advising Government or
taking part in local matters, I do not think there is
any harm if local Advisory Councils are constituted in
a cautious manner.
15657. In practice does the good Collector to-day
get all the advice and does he do all the consulting
that is necessary ?—Certainly.
15658. Would the formal appointment of Councils
be merely sentiment ?—Not exactly. I think it might
educate the people in some places, and it would be
useful in the way of inducing them to take more
interest in public matters.
15659. Then might you have a chaukidari union, a
Local Board, a District Board, and in addition an
Advisory Council all in one district, and that on the
top of that you would have an Advisory Council for a
province, and an Advisory Council for the Government
of India ?—Yes.
15660. Would that not be rather a plethora of
Advisory Councils ?—As it is, in my opinion, there are
too many such things already, but when you have too
many, there is no harm in having one more, and there
may be places where there is no harm in trying the
experiment, which might perhaps result in good.
15661. You would not make the District Board an
Advisory Council, would you ?—No, because there are
men on the District Board or on municipalities who
are a different class of men from those to whom I, for
one, or the Collector of the district, would look for
advice.
15662. It has been represented that if a Collector
had an Advisory Council, and consulted that Council,
he would feel more or less free in regard to consulting
anybody else ; do you think that would be so, and
would it be a good thing if it were so ?—No. I would
continue the present system on which administration
is carried on, and the better class of people, who are
sensible, responsible men, should be entitled to advise
on a particular subject, and, their advice ought to be
invariably sought. I think that class of people should
be encouraged. They are people who do not want to
come to the District Boards or municipalities, but at
the same time there would not be any harm in consti-
tuting a Council and getting them to take a greater
interest in it.
15663. Would the formation of Advisory Councils
tend to the exclusion of other people competent to
give advice ?—I think not.
15664. Are there districts which you think are not
fit for the creation of Advisory Councils, and there
are other districts which are ?—Yes.
15665. (Mr. Dutt). Do you advocate that there
should be two Advisory Councils in one district ?—I
did not mean that ; what I meant was that in some
districts an Advisory Council might be necessary, or
that in some divisions there might be Advisory Councils.
It might be that we might have a Divisional Advisory
Council and Advisory Councils in districts.
15666. When these Councils are created you say
that they should be consulted on questions of legisla-
tion. Do you mean that when, a new Bill.is drafted