DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0107
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
101
independence of action, and they have to bow, involun-
tarily, as it were, to the decision of the Magistrate-
Chairman.
The Chairman of the District Board should be a
non-official gentleman, and two-tbirds of its members
as in a municipality (but I would r.ather have three-
fourths) should be elected, and even amongst the
nominated members there should be a large pre-
ponderance of non-official persons and the District
Magistrate should have no connection with it.
Before constituting councils for Divisional or District
Officers I would prefer to wait till the results of the
workings of the proposed Imperial and Provincial
Advisory Boards are known. The answer to1 this
question entirely depends on whether the proposed
Divisional and District Councillors are to be invested
with some statutory powers ; whether they should
have some control over the administration and finances
of the division or of the district, or whether they
would be purely honorary advisers, mere ornamental
bodies, no statutory obligation being attached to their
advice or decision.
It would be a great blessing if the village com-
munities, now nearly extinct, could be revived and
invested with, besides other powers, powers of dis-
posing of petty civil and criminal cases.
16886. What are your reasons for recommending
that all loans should be raised by the Government of
India and not by the provincial Governments ?—Until
the provincial Governments have complete control over
their own finances, I would not allow provincial
Governments to raise loans. Moreover, if loans were
raised by them, it would tend to unsettle the market,
and they would not be able to raise money at the same
price as the Government of India would. The credit
of the Government of India in the local market is
much greater than that of the Local Governments.
16887. Is there any rupee market which is now
untouched by the Imperial Government which if the
provincial Governments had power to borrow could be
touched by them ?—I am not aware of any. All
markets are open to the Imperial Government.
16888. Would investors have any preference towards
a provincial Government as against the Imperial
Government ?—Most decidedly not.
16889. Do you think that the Divisional and District
Officers are in touch with the people ?—So far as the
people are concerned, they are not at all in touch with
them generally.
16890. Where do you live?—In Calcutta, but I am a
resident of the Dacca district, and I am a member of
the Eastern Bengal Legislative Council ; I am a
member of the Calcutta municipality, and I was also a
member of the Port Trust.
16891. Have you much knowledge of the country
outside Calcutta, such as would bring you in touch
with the people in the country districts and make you
acquainted with the work of Collectors and Commis-
sioners ?—I have some knowledge of the people in my
own district and also of the local authorities.
16892. Is the management of the Court of Works as
it exists at the present time satisfactory ?—I think
they are inclined to take the management of private
estates too much into their own hands.
16893. Does the Court of Wards now take an estate
out of your hands and manage it while you are still in
possession of it ?—They would like to. They do it on
the plea that the property cannot be properly managed.
When property is in the hands of females, the Court
of Wards tries to take advantage of the situation and
say that females are not competent to manage their
estates. In the case of a man dying it must have been
his wish that his estate should remain in the hands of
his wife, but in such cases the Court of Wards are too
much inclined to take over the management of private
estates. In that direction their action is objectionable ;
otherwise the management is very satisfactory.
16894. Has a Commissioner sufficient control over
the expenditure of the Court of Wards?—I have no
knowledge as to that.
16895. Is there much sympathy between the officials
of the Government and the people of a district ?—I do
not know whether theib is sympathy, but there is not
much intercourse.
16896. Does that affect both the native and the
European Executive Officers ?—To some extent.
16897. Is it more noticeable in one case than the Rai Sitanath
other?—It is more noticeable in the case of the Roy
Europeans, who are very exclusive. Bahadur.
16898. Can you suggest any reason for that ex- 2 Jan. 1908.
elusiveness?—1 ascribe it to their unwillingness to mix
with the people—they think it a great condescension,
and that it is below their dignity except, of course,
with regard to the big Rajas and so on.
16899. Do the people desire that the District Officers
should mingle with them ?—Certainly, I think they
would like it.
16900. Is there any obstacle, as far as you know, to
their doing so?—-Not to my knowledge, but 1 know
that amongst some of my educated countrymen they
do not think they get proper treatment when they go
to see officials, and they are not therefore willing to go
to see them.
16901. Do you mean that there is a section of the
community which does not like to see the officials ?—
Yes, because they do not receive proper treatment.
16902. Have you any knowledge of the work of
municipalities ?—Only a slight knowledge, but I think
there is too much indifference on the part of munici-
palities with regard to their work.
16903. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) You would like to
see the provincial Government self-contained, with
control over its finances, provided the people were
allowed a voice in that control. What exactly do you
mean by that statement?—-The Provincial Govern-
ment should be assisted by an Advisory Board, and
no measures should be carried out unless they were
sanctioned by, say, three-fourths of the members of
that Board.
16904. Do you mean that you would have a Govern-
ment with a large Executive Council?'—Not neces-
sarily, but I think if anything were opposed by three-
fourths of the members, it should not be carried out.
Whether that is feasible or not, however, I leave the
Government to decide.
16905. How long is it since you were a member of
the Port Trust of Calcutta ?—About nine years.
16906. Do you regard the Trust as an efficient busi-
ness body ?—-I think it is an efficient body.
16907. "You spoke of the difficulty of intercourse
with the people, but have you ever met with any
personal discourtesy or difficulty as regards officials ?—
No. At the beginning of my career I used to ex-
perience some little difficulty, but now I have none.
16908. (Mr. Meyer.) With regard to the suggested
separation between imperial and provincial finances,
would it be possible in this country ?—I think the
Government of India might retain some control and
power of supervision, but 1 do not see any reason why
the finances should not be separated.
16909. Are you aware that the present financial
system is based upon divided heads?—I know that
some of the heads of finance are under the provincial
Government, but I am not aware of the system.
16910. Are you opposed to the taking over of estates
by the Court of Wards ?—If it is against the feelings
of the members of the family, I am opposed to it ; if
the members are willing to agree, I do not see any
objection.
16911. The law now limits the taking over by the •
Court of Wards to estates which pay revenue to the
Government. Do you think the Court of Wards ought
to be able to take over the management of any estate,
whatever its character, if it were an important one ?—
I would have no objection to that.
16912. Would you have any objection to Commis-
sioners being invested with the powers of the Court
of Wards which are now exercised by the Board of
Revenue ?—I think I would prefer the present system
to continue.
16913. You spoke of the advantages of the present
work of Collectors being done by Deputy Collectors
in charge of their several departments ; is there not
room for further delegation ?—Deputy .Magistrates are
already invested with sufficient powers, and I do not
wish them to have more. I do not think the people
would like it.
16914. You spoke of the zamindar being constantly
accessible to his tenants, but large zamindars very
often do not live on their estates at all ?—Most of
101
independence of action, and they have to bow, involun-
tarily, as it were, to the decision of the Magistrate-
Chairman.
The Chairman of the District Board should be a
non-official gentleman, and two-tbirds of its members
as in a municipality (but I would r.ather have three-
fourths) should be elected, and even amongst the
nominated members there should be a large pre-
ponderance of non-official persons and the District
Magistrate should have no connection with it.
Before constituting councils for Divisional or District
Officers I would prefer to wait till the results of the
workings of the proposed Imperial and Provincial
Advisory Boards are known. The answer to1 this
question entirely depends on whether the proposed
Divisional and District Councillors are to be invested
with some statutory powers ; whether they should
have some control over the administration and finances
of the division or of the district, or whether they
would be purely honorary advisers, mere ornamental
bodies, no statutory obligation being attached to their
advice or decision.
It would be a great blessing if the village com-
munities, now nearly extinct, could be revived and
invested with, besides other powers, powers of dis-
posing of petty civil and criminal cases.
16886. What are your reasons for recommending
that all loans should be raised by the Government of
India and not by the provincial Governments ?—Until
the provincial Governments have complete control over
their own finances, I would not allow provincial
Governments to raise loans. Moreover, if loans were
raised by them, it would tend to unsettle the market,
and they would not be able to raise money at the same
price as the Government of India would. The credit
of the Government of India in the local market is
much greater than that of the Local Governments.
16887. Is there any rupee market which is now
untouched by the Imperial Government which if the
provincial Governments had power to borrow could be
touched by them ?—I am not aware of any. All
markets are open to the Imperial Government.
16888. Would investors have any preference towards
a provincial Government as against the Imperial
Government ?—Most decidedly not.
16889. Do you think that the Divisional and District
Officers are in touch with the people ?—So far as the
people are concerned, they are not at all in touch with
them generally.
16890. Where do you live?—In Calcutta, but I am a
resident of the Dacca district, and I am a member of
the Eastern Bengal Legislative Council ; I am a
member of the Calcutta municipality, and I was also a
member of the Port Trust.
16891. Have you much knowledge of the country
outside Calcutta, such as would bring you in touch
with the people in the country districts and make you
acquainted with the work of Collectors and Commis-
sioners ?—I have some knowledge of the people in my
own district and also of the local authorities.
16892. Is the management of the Court of Works as
it exists at the present time satisfactory ?—I think
they are inclined to take the management of private
estates too much into their own hands.
16893. Does the Court of Wards now take an estate
out of your hands and manage it while you are still in
possession of it ?—They would like to. They do it on
the plea that the property cannot be properly managed.
When property is in the hands of females, the Court
of Wards tries to take advantage of the situation and
say that females are not competent to manage their
estates. In the case of a man dying it must have been
his wish that his estate should remain in the hands of
his wife, but in such cases the Court of Wards are too
much inclined to take over the management of private
estates. In that direction their action is objectionable ;
otherwise the management is very satisfactory.
16894. Has a Commissioner sufficient control over
the expenditure of the Court of Wards?—I have no
knowledge as to that.
16895. Is there much sympathy between the officials
of the Government and the people of a district ?—I do
not know whether theib is sympathy, but there is not
much intercourse.
16896. Does that affect both the native and the
European Executive Officers ?—To some extent.
16897. Is it more noticeable in one case than the Rai Sitanath
other?—It is more noticeable in the case of the Roy
Europeans, who are very exclusive. Bahadur.
16898. Can you suggest any reason for that ex- 2 Jan. 1908.
elusiveness?—1 ascribe it to their unwillingness to mix
with the people—they think it a great condescension,
and that it is below their dignity except, of course,
with regard to the big Rajas and so on.
16899. Do the people desire that the District Officers
should mingle with them ?—Certainly, I think they
would like it.
16900. Is there any obstacle, as far as you know, to
their doing so?—-Not to my knowledge, but 1 know
that amongst some of my educated countrymen they
do not think they get proper treatment when they go
to see officials, and they are not therefore willing to go
to see them.
16901. Do you mean that there is a section of the
community which does not like to see the officials ?—
Yes, because they do not receive proper treatment.
16902. Have you any knowledge of the work of
municipalities ?—Only a slight knowledge, but I think
there is too much indifference on the part of munici-
palities with regard to their work.
16903. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) You would like to
see the provincial Government self-contained, with
control over its finances, provided the people were
allowed a voice in that control. What exactly do you
mean by that statement?—-The Provincial Govern-
ment should be assisted by an Advisory Board, and
no measures should be carried out unless they were
sanctioned by, say, three-fourths of the members of
that Board.
16904. Do you mean that you would have a Govern-
ment with a large Executive Council?'—Not neces-
sarily, but I think if anything were opposed by three-
fourths of the members, it should not be carried out.
Whether that is feasible or not, however, I leave the
Government to decide.
16905. How long is it since you were a member of
the Port Trust of Calcutta ?—About nine years.
16906. Do you regard the Trust as an efficient busi-
ness body ?—-I think it is an efficient body.
16907. "You spoke of the difficulty of intercourse
with the people, but have you ever met with any
personal discourtesy or difficulty as regards officials ?—
No. At the beginning of my career I used to ex-
perience some little difficulty, but now I have none.
16908. (Mr. Meyer.) With regard to the suggested
separation between imperial and provincial finances,
would it be possible in this country ?—I think the
Government of India might retain some control and
power of supervision, but 1 do not see any reason why
the finances should not be separated.
16909. Are you aware that the present financial
system is based upon divided heads?—I know that
some of the heads of finance are under the provincial
Government, but I am not aware of the system.
16910. Are you opposed to the taking over of estates
by the Court of Wards ?—If it is against the feelings
of the members of the family, I am opposed to it ; if
the members are willing to agree, I do not see any
objection.
16911. The law now limits the taking over by the •
Court of Wards to estates which pay revenue to the
Government. Do you think the Court of Wards ought
to be able to take over the management of any estate,
whatever its character, if it were an important one ?—
I would have no objection to that.
16912. Would you have any objection to Commis-
sioners being invested with the powers of the Court
of Wards which are now exercised by the Board of
Revenue ?—I think I would prefer the present system
to continue.
16913. You spoke of the advantages of the present
work of Collectors being done by Deputy Collectors
in charge of their several departments ; is there not
room for further delegation ?—Deputy .Magistrates are
already invested with sufficient powers, and I do not
wish them to have more. I do not think the people
would like it.
16914. You spoke of the zamindar being constantly
accessible to his tenants, but large zamindars very
often do not live on their estates at all ?—Most of