DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0113
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
107
passed the order is more or less put on his defence, and
charges are brought against him which he is supposed to
refute in the margin in forwarding the appeal.
17058. Would appeals from the orders of District
Superintendents in regard to constables come to you,
after going to the Deputy Inspector-General ?—They
would not, unless I had interfered originally in the
order ; unless I order that appeals should be sent to
me, they go into other channels. .
17059. Do you follow the principle of not calling
for a report, paragraph by paragraph, but telling the
original authority to send up the record and then
seeing if there is anything more to be dealt with ?—
No, there are certain rules, but when an allegation is
made against an officer, who has passed an order, he is
supposed to meet that allegation and offer some sort of
explanation, whether it is true or false.
17060. Assuming that appeals must go on, is it
possible to simplify the procedure on the lines sug-
gested, that is to say, that on appeal from the original
officer he would merely send on his record with any
further explanatory remarks which the appeal petition
might suggest ?—'Possibly it might. I am not prepared
to give a decided opinion.
17061. Have there been a considerable number of
changes in the officers holding your appointment ?—
Since 1898 there have been 5 permanent Inspectors-
General of Police, but since 1903 there have been 2
permanent Inspectors-General and two officers who
have officiated on occasions.
17062. The police, I understand, used to have a good
deal to do with the chaukidari panchayats. Has that
power been largely taken away lately ?—Yes, alto-
gether—we have nothing to do with the panchayats
now.
17063. Or in connection with the chaukidars ?—No.
17064. But is there not a head chaukidar ?—Yes ; a
daffadar, whom we have the right of selecting.
17065. From the police point of view, has it been
prejudicial or otherwise to the general peace of the
country ?—It is very difficult to get statistics to judge
how a thing like that is acting ; but my personal
opinion is that, as the chaukidars are the ears and
eyes of the police, the police ought to have something
to do with their selection and be associated more with
them and that they ought to be more or less under
him. Of course, as regards getting information and
things of that kind, if the hold of the police is
loosened over the chaukidar, they are also losing hold
of the means of detecting crime.
17066. Has there been any spread of crime or any
decrease in the number of offences detected since the
change has been made ?—I cannot say : there is no
reliable statistical indication.
17067. Might larger civil and magisterial powers be
given to chaukidari panchayats ?—I should like to see
a village tribunal or a village panchayat which would
take over a great deal of the work in connection with
crime which is now dealt with by the Courts. It
would be very difficult, but it could be done.
17068. Ought an experiment to be tried and every
effort made to bring it to success ?—I should certainly
think so.
17069. Then you admit there is some amount of
grievance at present in the way in which people are
brought to or from the courts in small cases ?—Yes,
and it would do away with the large number of
pleaders you see hanging about the courts, who have to
live, and therefore foster and promote complaints of
this nature.
17070. Would you add, as a corollary, that if such
powers were given to panchayat, they should not be
appealable to a magistrate ?—They should be ab-
solutely non-appealable, and I would not allow a
mulctear or a pleader anywhere near them. I should
have a simple record made of what was done, and if
possible an officer who could go round periodically and
see what the record was, talk over their cases and raise
the tone generally of the village community. That
could easily be done, and it would, be a good thing
to do. ,,
17071. Do you mean an officer of the Deputy Col-
lector class ?—I would suggest the District Magistrate,
and it would bring him more into touch with the
people and the Local Government than anything else.
17072. Assuming that it is desirable that there
should be some outside inspection of panchayats,
would it be better done by the officer who has territorial
jurisdiction, say the Sub-Divisional Officer, or by some
special officer appointed to have charge of chaukidari
panchayat work for the district ?—I am distinctly of
opinion that if you are going to increase or restore the
influence of the District Officer, it should, as far as
possible, be the District Officer himself and the Sub-
Divisional Officer.
17073. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.} Does promotion by
seniority go up to the Rs. 900 grade of Superintendent ?
—Yes.
17074. In 1906 you had an Assistant Inspector-
General in charge of the whole of the Railway Police ?
—We had two Assistant Inspectors-General; one was
in charge of the East Indian Railway and that system ;
the other was in charge of the Eastern Bengal State
Railway and the system.
17075. What have you got now ?—We have got
three Superintendents and one Deputy Inspector-
General for Railways ; he is also Deputy Inspector-
General for crime.
17076. Does one Superintendent take charge of the
whole of the East Indian Railway system ?—Yes, so
far as it is in our province ; he is bounded by our
boundaries of course. His jurisdiction is about 1,300
miles, up to Moghal Sarai.
17077. Has he no European Gazetted Assistants?—
No ; he has merely got inspectors.
17078. Is one officer adequate for a charge of that
sort ?—I think myself that he is overworked ; he
always has been ; he has never been able to carry it
out properly.
17079. When a mail train leaves Howrah station,
where does it first stop ?—It is a very long run, about
60 miles I think, straight through to Burdwan.
17080. Practically there is no suburban station for
Calcutta?—No, except Lilloah, where they take the
tickets : there is no suburban station where the train
stops.
17081. (Sir Frederic Lely.) In addition to the power
to give administrative sanction to additions or altera-
tions to buildings, would you also empower the In-
spector-General to carry it out by the agency of his
own people ?—Yes, because we can do them almost as
well and far more cheaply ; also, more quickly.
17082. Has not the scheme for the re-organization of
the department, which is still in progress, involved a
large number of orders on mere details by the Secre-
tary of State ?—Yes, we have had orders on details, on
the Police Commission’s Report.
17083. Has the regulation of details by the Govern-
ment of India been excessive ?—I could quote one or
two cases where it has been, but I have no very
general complaint to make.
17084. Would the ordinary organisation be better
carried out by the Local Government ?—If the Local
Government’s suggestion had been carried out, we
would probably have been better off.
17085. Does the Commissioner co-operate in police
work at all ?—-Whenever any important matter comes
up, I always consult the Commissioner. I should not
move officers or take any step of that kind, without
first ascertaining if possible that it met with his ap-
proval.
17086. Has he any authority to take any initiatory
steps himself ?—He can write and suggest things
perhaps ; if he should find that there was anything
wrong in his division in connection with these charges,
he would write : I would welcome any assistance of
that kind.
17087. Are Sub-Inspectors now chosen according to
the new rules adopted as the result of the report of
the Police Commission, and given a special training
before they begin their work ?—Yes.
17088. (Mr. Dutt.'' Are head-constables usually now
promoted to the grade of sub-inspectors ?—It is per-
missible to promote up to 15 per cent, of the numbers
recruited.
17089. Can you yet say whether the work of the
police has improved under the new rules ? —I think
there is no doubt that the class of officer and the class
Mr. A.
Knyvett.
2 Jan., 1908.
33263
O 2
107
passed the order is more or less put on his defence, and
charges are brought against him which he is supposed to
refute in the margin in forwarding the appeal.
17058. Would appeals from the orders of District
Superintendents in regard to constables come to you,
after going to the Deputy Inspector-General ?—They
would not, unless I had interfered originally in the
order ; unless I order that appeals should be sent to
me, they go into other channels. .
17059. Do you follow the principle of not calling
for a report, paragraph by paragraph, but telling the
original authority to send up the record and then
seeing if there is anything more to be dealt with ?—
No, there are certain rules, but when an allegation is
made against an officer, who has passed an order, he is
supposed to meet that allegation and offer some sort of
explanation, whether it is true or false.
17060. Assuming that appeals must go on, is it
possible to simplify the procedure on the lines sug-
gested, that is to say, that on appeal from the original
officer he would merely send on his record with any
further explanatory remarks which the appeal petition
might suggest ?—'Possibly it might. I am not prepared
to give a decided opinion.
17061. Have there been a considerable number of
changes in the officers holding your appointment ?—
Since 1898 there have been 5 permanent Inspectors-
General of Police, but since 1903 there have been 2
permanent Inspectors-General and two officers who
have officiated on occasions.
17062. The police, I understand, used to have a good
deal to do with the chaukidari panchayats. Has that
power been largely taken away lately ?—Yes, alto-
gether—we have nothing to do with the panchayats
now.
17063. Or in connection with the chaukidars ?—No.
17064. But is there not a head chaukidar ?—Yes ; a
daffadar, whom we have the right of selecting.
17065. From the police point of view, has it been
prejudicial or otherwise to the general peace of the
country ?—It is very difficult to get statistics to judge
how a thing like that is acting ; but my personal
opinion is that, as the chaukidars are the ears and
eyes of the police, the police ought to have something
to do with their selection and be associated more with
them and that they ought to be more or less under
him. Of course, as regards getting information and
things of that kind, if the hold of the police is
loosened over the chaukidar, they are also losing hold
of the means of detecting crime.
17066. Has there been any spread of crime or any
decrease in the number of offences detected since the
change has been made ?—I cannot say : there is no
reliable statistical indication.
17067. Might larger civil and magisterial powers be
given to chaukidari panchayats ?—I should like to see
a village tribunal or a village panchayat which would
take over a great deal of the work in connection with
crime which is now dealt with by the Courts. It
would be very difficult, but it could be done.
17068. Ought an experiment to be tried and every
effort made to bring it to success ?—I should certainly
think so.
17069. Then you admit there is some amount of
grievance at present in the way in which people are
brought to or from the courts in small cases ?—Yes,
and it would do away with the large number of
pleaders you see hanging about the courts, who have to
live, and therefore foster and promote complaints of
this nature.
17070. Would you add, as a corollary, that if such
powers were given to panchayat, they should not be
appealable to a magistrate ?—They should be ab-
solutely non-appealable, and I would not allow a
mulctear or a pleader anywhere near them. I should
have a simple record made of what was done, and if
possible an officer who could go round periodically and
see what the record was, talk over their cases and raise
the tone generally of the village community. That
could easily be done, and it would, be a good thing
to do. ,,
17071. Do you mean an officer of the Deputy Col-
lector class ?—I would suggest the District Magistrate,
and it would bring him more into touch with the
people and the Local Government than anything else.
17072. Assuming that it is desirable that there
should be some outside inspection of panchayats,
would it be better done by the officer who has territorial
jurisdiction, say the Sub-Divisional Officer, or by some
special officer appointed to have charge of chaukidari
panchayat work for the district ?—I am distinctly of
opinion that if you are going to increase or restore the
influence of the District Officer, it should, as far as
possible, be the District Officer himself and the Sub-
Divisional Officer.
17073. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.} Does promotion by
seniority go up to the Rs. 900 grade of Superintendent ?
—Yes.
17074. In 1906 you had an Assistant Inspector-
General in charge of the whole of the Railway Police ?
—We had two Assistant Inspectors-General; one was
in charge of the East Indian Railway and that system ;
the other was in charge of the Eastern Bengal State
Railway and the system.
17075. What have you got now ?—We have got
three Superintendents and one Deputy Inspector-
General for Railways ; he is also Deputy Inspector-
General for crime.
17076. Does one Superintendent take charge of the
whole of the East Indian Railway system ?—Yes, so
far as it is in our province ; he is bounded by our
boundaries of course. His jurisdiction is about 1,300
miles, up to Moghal Sarai.
17077. Has he no European Gazetted Assistants?—
No ; he has merely got inspectors.
17078. Is one officer adequate for a charge of that
sort ?—I think myself that he is overworked ; he
always has been ; he has never been able to carry it
out properly.
17079. When a mail train leaves Howrah station,
where does it first stop ?—It is a very long run, about
60 miles I think, straight through to Burdwan.
17080. Practically there is no suburban station for
Calcutta?—No, except Lilloah, where they take the
tickets : there is no suburban station where the train
stops.
17081. (Sir Frederic Lely.) In addition to the power
to give administrative sanction to additions or altera-
tions to buildings, would you also empower the In-
spector-General to carry it out by the agency of his
own people ?—Yes, because we can do them almost as
well and far more cheaply ; also, more quickly.
17082. Has not the scheme for the re-organization of
the department, which is still in progress, involved a
large number of orders on mere details by the Secre-
tary of State ?—Yes, we have had orders on details, on
the Police Commission’s Report.
17083. Has the regulation of details by the Govern-
ment of India been excessive ?—I could quote one or
two cases where it has been, but I have no very
general complaint to make.
17084. Would the ordinary organisation be better
carried out by the Local Government ?—If the Local
Government’s suggestion had been carried out, we
would probably have been better off.
17085. Does the Commissioner co-operate in police
work at all ?—-Whenever any important matter comes
up, I always consult the Commissioner. I should not
move officers or take any step of that kind, without
first ascertaining if possible that it met with his ap-
proval.
17086. Has he any authority to take any initiatory
steps himself ?—He can write and suggest things
perhaps ; if he should find that there was anything
wrong in his division in connection with these charges,
he would write : I would welcome any assistance of
that kind.
17087. Are Sub-Inspectors now chosen according to
the new rules adopted as the result of the report of
the Police Commission, and given a special training
before they begin their work ?—Yes.
17088. (Mr. Dutt.'' Are head-constables usually now
promoted to the grade of sub-inspectors ?—It is per-
missible to promote up to 15 per cent, of the numbers
recruited.
17089. Can you yet say whether the work of the
police has improved under the new rules ? —I think
there is no doubt that the class of officer and the class
Mr. A.
Knyvett.
2 Jan., 1908.
33263
O 2