DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0133
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
127
to be confirmed by the Board of Revenue ; I am not
sure that that confirmation is necessary, and that it
might not be done perhaps by the Commissioner.
17575. Would you prefer a system by which the
Collector should make the partition, getting it con-
firmed by the Commissioner ?—I am not prepared to
say that I should prefer that.
17576. Does not your district organization consist
largely in the concentration of Deputy Collectors at
headquarters ?—Yes, combined with sub-divisions.
17577. Is the headquarter sub-division in direct
charge of the Collector, with two or perhaps three
outlying sub-divisions in an ordinary district ?—YeS.
17578. The Sub-Divisional Officer, who may be a
Civilian, is sent there principally for magisterial work ?
—Yes, I should say chiefly. He does a certain amount
of revenue work, which varies in different districts.
He also presides over the Local Board.
17579. On the other hand, the largest sub-division
of the district is administered by the Collector, who
has Deputy Collectors for excise, income-tax, and
stamps, and other branches of administration ?—Yes.
17580. As you are probably aware, the whole district
in Madras is divided into sub-divisions, and there is a
Sub-Divisional Officer for each one, the Collector con-
trolling them as the inspecting authority ; is there
something to be said for that plan ?—One of our pro-
posals is to have an officer in charge of the headquarters
sub-division.
17581. If you had that system, would it be neces-
sary to have Deputy Collectors concentrated at head-
quarters ; would it not be better to allow each Sub-
Divisional Officer to act as a Collector for his sub-
division and perform all the branches of administrative
work which the Collector has to do ?—Yes, but of
course he would require more staff.
17582. With regard to income-tax in Bengal, I
understand that all the work is centred in the hands
of a single Income-tax Deputy Collector. In Madras,
on the other hand, the local officer makes his income-
tax assessments, subject to the control of the Collector.
Would it not be better to have such matters attended
to by such an officer who has knowledge of the local
area, instead of concentrating it at headquarters?—I
should not object to that being done.
17583. You speak of the Joint-Magistrate as having
disappeared ; have you not a certain number of Joint-
Magistrates on the cadre ?—We have not got them
serving in the districts in the way we had in the old
days. There was then a Joint-Magistrate who knew
the district, but that class of officer has disappeared.
In the cold weather now, we get a young officer
officiating as Joint- Magistrate for two or three months ;
then off he goes in the hot weather, with the result
that he never gets a thorough hold of the district.
17584. Is that not due to the fact that promotion
to Collectorships is rather rapid ?—The Local Govern-
ment has expressed its views on the subject; it is
rather a detailed question which I am not prepared to
answer.
17585. Would you like to see the Commissioner
occupying a position rather like that of a Sub-Governor ?
—In a kind of way, yes.
17586. Apart from language and geographic con-
siderations, if a province was homogeneous, would you
still give Commissioners large powers and make them
a species of Sub-Governor?—I think I had better
confine my remarks to the province I know best—■
Bengal; I am not sure whether it would be appro-
priate to other provinces or not.
17587. Apart from that, would you be prepared to
give larger powers to Commissioners ; would you
divide the present budget and give each Commissioner
a piece of it to deal with ?—I think there is scope for
action in that direction.
17588. In the matter of Public Works, for instance,
would you give the Commissioner powers of adminis-
trative sanction ?—That would be a useful thing, if he
also got allotment of funds.
17589. Would you give him the power of appointing
Sub-Deputy Collectors ?—I think he might be given
such powers.
17590. Would you give him the power of posting
members of the Civil and Provincial Services in his
own division ?—I c-rtainly would give him power
as to the Provincial Service, and also as to the Indian
Civil Service ; if there was fair continuity of service he
might be entrusted with those powers.
17591. Would you like him to have power to post a
Collector, or would you confine him to posting to
grades below the Collector ?—I should be inclined to
leave Government to post Collectors.
17592. Might the Commissioner have powers, sub-
ject to rules laid down by the Local Government, of
vesting officers with magisterial powers ?—I think so.
17593. And such other special powers as, in the
opinion of the Local Government, may be required
under the Criminal Procedure Code, of committing to
the Sessions, ordering securities for good behaviour,
and things of that sort ?—Yes, all those are matters
which a Commissioner ought to be competent to deal
with.
17594. It has been suggested that instead of a
number of administration r ports on different subjects,
such as municipalities, excise, and so on, there should
be one comprehensive administration report for a
province in which there should be paragraphs dealing
with each subject ; would that enable the Local
Government and the Government of India to get
sufficient knowledge of what was passing in regard to
particular matters connected with administration ?—
I should be inclined to think not.
Mr. H. J.
McIntosh.
3 Jan., 1908.
17595. Is not one reason for these administration
reports that, apart from the necessity of furnishing
information to the higher authorities, it enables an
officer’s successor to see what has been going on ?—
Yes.
17596. (Mr. Flichens.) What, briefly, were the
general principles of the provincial financial settle-
ment ?—The main change was that a guasi-permanent
settlement was effected instead of a five years’ settle-
ment as before.
17597. What was the object of that ?—One object
was to give the Local Government a keener interest in
administering the details of its departments economi-
cally and efficiently.
17598. Would the general idea of the relations
between the Government of India and provincial
Governments be that the Government of India has to
deal with principles and Local Governments have to
deal with detail ?—Yes, I think so.
17599. You said that with regard to financial matters
it was somewhat difficult to carry that idea out
because the interpretation of the Financial Codes was
a matter which could not be left to Local Govern-
ment ?—The application ought to be left; if a question
of interpretation arises, then it must go to the Govern-
ment of India for settlement.
17600. Are you prepared to say that the Civil
Service Regulations, for example, lay down certain
principles to which, admittedly, from time to time it
is desirable to make exceptions, but that those excep-
tions should be made, not by the Government of India,
but by the Local Government?—I would certainly
ask for very free powers for the Local Govern-
ment to make exceptions.
17601. From your knowledge of the Civil Account
Code and the Civil Service Regulations, would you go
so far as to say that the power of making exceptions,
wherever any such power is granted, should be given
to the Local Government and not to the Government
of India, that is to say, wherever in the Codes the
words occur, “ subject to the exceptions to be approved
by the Government of India,” you would substitute
the words, “ subject to the exceptions to be made by
the Local Government ” ?—I would not commit
myself so absolutely, but as a general principle I
should think so.
17602. In the matter of interpretation again, do
you get a good deal of detail?—Yes, any important
point of principle ought to go to the Supreme Govern-
ment, but, personally, I would leave as much detail as
possible to the Local Government.
17603. Are the estimates of the Bengal Government
compiled in the Finance Department ?—Yes, upon
information sent up by the Accountant-General who
collects it in the first instance, and sends his figures on
to the Local Government. The Local Government
frames its budget upon that.
127
to be confirmed by the Board of Revenue ; I am not
sure that that confirmation is necessary, and that it
might not be done perhaps by the Commissioner.
17575. Would you prefer a system by which the
Collector should make the partition, getting it con-
firmed by the Commissioner ?—I am not prepared to
say that I should prefer that.
17576. Does not your district organization consist
largely in the concentration of Deputy Collectors at
headquarters ?—Yes, combined with sub-divisions.
17577. Is the headquarter sub-division in direct
charge of the Collector, with two or perhaps three
outlying sub-divisions in an ordinary district ?—YeS.
17578. The Sub-Divisional Officer, who may be a
Civilian, is sent there principally for magisterial work ?
—Yes, I should say chiefly. He does a certain amount
of revenue work, which varies in different districts.
He also presides over the Local Board.
17579. On the other hand, the largest sub-division
of the district is administered by the Collector, who
has Deputy Collectors for excise, income-tax, and
stamps, and other branches of administration ?—Yes.
17580. As you are probably aware, the whole district
in Madras is divided into sub-divisions, and there is a
Sub-Divisional Officer for each one, the Collector con-
trolling them as the inspecting authority ; is there
something to be said for that plan ?—One of our pro-
posals is to have an officer in charge of the headquarters
sub-division.
17581. If you had that system, would it be neces-
sary to have Deputy Collectors concentrated at head-
quarters ; would it not be better to allow each Sub-
Divisional Officer to act as a Collector for his sub-
division and perform all the branches of administrative
work which the Collector has to do ?—Yes, but of
course he would require more staff.
17582. With regard to income-tax in Bengal, I
understand that all the work is centred in the hands
of a single Income-tax Deputy Collector. In Madras,
on the other hand, the local officer makes his income-
tax assessments, subject to the control of the Collector.
Would it not be better to have such matters attended
to by such an officer who has knowledge of the local
area, instead of concentrating it at headquarters?—I
should not object to that being done.
17583. You speak of the Joint-Magistrate as having
disappeared ; have you not a certain number of Joint-
Magistrates on the cadre ?—We have not got them
serving in the districts in the way we had in the old
days. There was then a Joint-Magistrate who knew
the district, but that class of officer has disappeared.
In the cold weather now, we get a young officer
officiating as Joint- Magistrate for two or three months ;
then off he goes in the hot weather, with the result
that he never gets a thorough hold of the district.
17584. Is that not due to the fact that promotion
to Collectorships is rather rapid ?—The Local Govern-
ment has expressed its views on the subject; it is
rather a detailed question which I am not prepared to
answer.
17585. Would you like to see the Commissioner
occupying a position rather like that of a Sub-Governor ?
—In a kind of way, yes.
17586. Apart from language and geographic con-
siderations, if a province was homogeneous, would you
still give Commissioners large powers and make them
a species of Sub-Governor?—I think I had better
confine my remarks to the province I know best—■
Bengal; I am not sure whether it would be appro-
priate to other provinces or not.
17587. Apart from that, would you be prepared to
give larger powers to Commissioners ; would you
divide the present budget and give each Commissioner
a piece of it to deal with ?—I think there is scope for
action in that direction.
17588. In the matter of Public Works, for instance,
would you give the Commissioner powers of adminis-
trative sanction ?—That would be a useful thing, if he
also got allotment of funds.
17589. Would you give him the power of appointing
Sub-Deputy Collectors ?—I think he might be given
such powers.
17590. Would you give him the power of posting
members of the Civil and Provincial Services in his
own division ?—I c-rtainly would give him power
as to the Provincial Service, and also as to the Indian
Civil Service ; if there was fair continuity of service he
might be entrusted with those powers.
17591. Would you like him to have power to post a
Collector, or would you confine him to posting to
grades below the Collector ?—I should be inclined to
leave Government to post Collectors.
17592. Might the Commissioner have powers, sub-
ject to rules laid down by the Local Government, of
vesting officers with magisterial powers ?—I think so.
17593. And such other special powers as, in the
opinion of the Local Government, may be required
under the Criminal Procedure Code, of committing to
the Sessions, ordering securities for good behaviour,
and things of that sort ?—Yes, all those are matters
which a Commissioner ought to be competent to deal
with.
17594. It has been suggested that instead of a
number of administration r ports on different subjects,
such as municipalities, excise, and so on, there should
be one comprehensive administration report for a
province in which there should be paragraphs dealing
with each subject ; would that enable the Local
Government and the Government of India to get
sufficient knowledge of what was passing in regard to
particular matters connected with administration ?—
I should be inclined to think not.
Mr. H. J.
McIntosh.
3 Jan., 1908.
17595. Is not one reason for these administration
reports that, apart from the necessity of furnishing
information to the higher authorities, it enables an
officer’s successor to see what has been going on ?—
Yes.
17596. (Mr. Flichens.) What, briefly, were the
general principles of the provincial financial settle-
ment ?—The main change was that a guasi-permanent
settlement was effected instead of a five years’ settle-
ment as before.
17597. What was the object of that ?—One object
was to give the Local Government a keener interest in
administering the details of its departments economi-
cally and efficiently.
17598. Would the general idea of the relations
between the Government of India and provincial
Governments be that the Government of India has to
deal with principles and Local Governments have to
deal with detail ?—Yes, I think so.
17599. You said that with regard to financial matters
it was somewhat difficult to carry that idea out
because the interpretation of the Financial Codes was
a matter which could not be left to Local Govern-
ment ?—The application ought to be left; if a question
of interpretation arises, then it must go to the Govern-
ment of India for settlement.
17600. Are you prepared to say that the Civil
Service Regulations, for example, lay down certain
principles to which, admittedly, from time to time it
is desirable to make exceptions, but that those excep-
tions should be made, not by the Government of India,
but by the Local Government?—I would certainly
ask for very free powers for the Local Govern-
ment to make exceptions.
17601. From your knowledge of the Civil Account
Code and the Civil Service Regulations, would you go
so far as to say that the power of making exceptions,
wherever any such power is granted, should be given
to the Local Government and not to the Government
of India, that is to say, wherever in the Codes the
words occur, “ subject to the exceptions to be approved
by the Government of India,” you would substitute
the words, “ subject to the exceptions to be made by
the Local Government ” ?—I would not commit
myself so absolutely, but as a general principle I
should think so.
17602. In the matter of interpretation again, do
you get a good deal of detail?—Yes, any important
point of principle ought to go to the Supreme Govern-
ment, but, personally, I would leave as much detail as
possible to the Local Government.
17603. Are the estimates of the Bengal Government
compiled in the Finance Department ?—Yes, upon
information sent up by the Accountant-General who
collects it in the first instance, and sends his figures on
to the Local Government. The Local Government
frames its budget upon that.