DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0134
Mr. JET. J.
McIntosh.
3 Jan., 1908.
128
MINUTES OE EVIDENCE I
17604. Suppose in the course of the year there
happens to be a falling off in tb,e revenue, is the
Finance Department responsible fro bringing that to
the notice of the Lieutenant-Governor ?—The Finan-
cial Secret iry certainly would bring it to the notice
of the Lieutenant-Governor. He receives monthly
statements from the Accountant-General showing how
the revenues are coming in and the expenditure going
on, and, if there was anything very abnormal, the
Financial Secretary ought to bring it to the notice of
the Lieutenant-Governor.
17605. It would be his business to point out to the
Lieutenant-Governor, for example, that the revenue
was falling so short that there must be curtailment in
the expenditure ?—Undoubtedly.
17606. Would it be his business to make recom-
mendations as to where a curtailment should be made ?
—He would have information showing how the ex-
penditure was progressing up to date in the different
departments, and he might be in a position to sug-
gest that as a given department, say, receiving an
allotment of 20 lakhs, had only spent 5 lakhs in the
first seven or eight months of the year, a saving might
be effected there. He could point out where he
thought a curtailment might be possible, but he could
not order it.
17607. Would you, as Secretary in the Finance
Department, make recommendations to the Lieutenant-
Governor, or would he decide the matter after con-
sulting the various departments ?—Such a thing has
not actually occurred in my time, but if it had I
would have consulted the Heads of Departments and
ascertained from them how far a curtailment could
have been effected ; then I should have put all their
views together, and laid the case as completely as I
could before the Lieutenant-Governor, and left it to
him to decide where any curtailment should be made.
17608. Should Local Government have more power
in matters of appointment, travelling allowances,
pensions and such things ?—Yes, certainly.
17609. But not on larger matters ?—I am quite
content with the existing principles which govern the
relations between the Imperial Government and the
Local Government, which I think are good and sound.
17610. Are you quite satisfied that the budget
should be passed by the Government of India ?—Yes,
quite.
17611. Have you been a Commissioner long enough
to form an opinion with regard to the character of the
work which goes up to the Board of Revenue ?—No,
I think not. I would rather not express an opinion.
17612. When you were Secretary to the Finance
Department you dealt also with municipal affairs ? Do
you think it advisable to give wider powers to munici-
palities ?—I am not disposed to make any recom-
mendation for giving wider powers to municipalities at
present.
17613. Would you allow them more freedom in
exercising the powers that municipalities already
possess ?—-Yes.
17614. Would you allow them to exercise their
powers without so much Government intervention ?—-
No ; I think municipalities require a good deal of
control and supervision. I do rot think their offices
are very well run ; there is no good supervision over
them. You may have an energetic Chairman, who may
be good at out-door work, but, speaking generally, the
offices are not well supervised, and there is a want of
control over their conduct which reflects to a con-
siderable extent on the administration outside.
17615. You would not be prepared to go so far as to
allow them to make up their own budgets without
submission to the Government, and without the sanction
of the Government ?—I would not send them beyond
the Commissioner of the division—in fact, at present,
they do not go beyond the Commissioner.
17616. As Commissioner would you examine the
budget very closely ?—It is the District Magistrate
who examines it closely ; I do not. think the Com-
missioner would do so.
17617. Supposing you disagreed with a budget,
would you send it back, and would you make them
practically agree to what you wanted ?•—Only in an
extreme case ; I do not think one would interfere in
small matters unnecessarily.
17618. Then the existing power of control is not
very widely used ?—Personally I have never known
any municipality object to its budget being examined
and criticised ; on the whole, they rather like its being
examined for them.
17619. Do they like it for the reason that, in the
event of anything going wrong, or if there is grumbling
at the weight of taxation, they can shift the responsi-
bility on to the Government ?—No ; that would be
rather an unfair motive to attribute to them.
17620. Is it possible tc delegate further powers from
the District Boards to Local Boards ?—That is a very
complicated question ; at present I think the Local
Board is not serving a very useful purpose, and it is
a question whether we should take away from the
District Board and give to the Local Board, or whether
we should do without Local Boards altogether and
simply have District Boards and union committees.
Some re-distribution is required, but it is not quite
settled yet in what direction it should go.
17621. Broadly speaking, is it important that the
method of election should be amended ?—Yes.
17622. And when that is done, would you be pre-
pared to give Local Boards further powers ?—Yes, I
think so—that is the intention of the Local Govern-
ment, and I agree with it.
17623. District Boards have a pretty wide area to
deal with, and no member probably knows much about
the whole of it ?—I think they are not intimately
acquainted with the whole of it.
17624. Are they more likely to be interested in the
area of their own Local Board ?—Yes ; we hope they
will be, but at present they are not. There is more
life in a District Board.
17625. Is that because Local Boards have no money
of their own to deal with ?—Yes ; they have very little
to do, and the thing is not well arranged at present.
17626. Would you recommend that they should have
a definite portion of the cess to dispose of themselves ;
for example, would you give them power to deal with
education ?—I would not like to commit myself to
that ; I would like to give them as much freedom as
possible, but it is a very difficult question to argue.
17627. You are not prepared to say, then, broadly,
that you think they ought to have a definite income of
some kind?—No, not unless they were prepared to
raise more income by light local taxation.
17628. Supposing the Public Works Cess was handed
over to District Boards, would you then be prepared to
say they might have a portion of that ?—Theoretically
I would, but the difficulty then arises who is to spend
that money, and what the agency will be. At present
you have one District Engineer for a whole district,
and if you are going to divide the Road Cess money,
or the Public Works Cess money into four separate
shares, are you going to have four separate District
Engineers ?
17629. That objection would not apply to educa-
tion ?—Perhaps not ; they might be able to run their
own primary education to a large extent, and I should
like to see them as free as possible in respect to that.
17630. With regard-to authorities subordinate to a
Local Board I understand that there are two kinds
of organizations ; there is a chaukidari panchayat and
there is also a union committee ?—There are two such
bodies in existence.
17631. Does the chaukidari panchayat merely deal
with police matters ?—Yes. A union committee is a
different thing under the Local Self-Government Act.
17632. Have union committees not been quite
successful ?—They have not much life as yet, and the
Local Government have sent proposals to the Govern-
ment of India to expand their spheres of usefulness.
17633. If they ought to be expanded, would you do
it on the lines of unions of villages or would you make
each village a unit by itself ?—On the whole a union
of villages would be better. You might possibly get
one village too small to be a municipality, and quite
big enough to be a union of itself.
17634. Would the villagers in one village be inte-
rested in the affairs of another village?—On the
whole, one would suppose not.
17635. A priori does it not seem likely that a body
with more life would be created if it was confined to
McIntosh.
3 Jan., 1908.
128
MINUTES OE EVIDENCE I
17604. Suppose in the course of the year there
happens to be a falling off in tb,e revenue, is the
Finance Department responsible fro bringing that to
the notice of the Lieutenant-Governor ?—The Finan-
cial Secret iry certainly would bring it to the notice
of the Lieutenant-Governor. He receives monthly
statements from the Accountant-General showing how
the revenues are coming in and the expenditure going
on, and, if there was anything very abnormal, the
Financial Secretary ought to bring it to the notice of
the Lieutenant-Governor.
17605. It would be his business to point out to the
Lieutenant-Governor, for example, that the revenue
was falling so short that there must be curtailment in
the expenditure ?—Undoubtedly.
17606. Would it be his business to make recom-
mendations as to where a curtailment should be made ?
—He would have information showing how the ex-
penditure was progressing up to date in the different
departments, and he might be in a position to sug-
gest that as a given department, say, receiving an
allotment of 20 lakhs, had only spent 5 lakhs in the
first seven or eight months of the year, a saving might
be effected there. He could point out where he
thought a curtailment might be possible, but he could
not order it.
17607. Would you, as Secretary in the Finance
Department, make recommendations to the Lieutenant-
Governor, or would he decide the matter after con-
sulting the various departments ?—Such a thing has
not actually occurred in my time, but if it had I
would have consulted the Heads of Departments and
ascertained from them how far a curtailment could
have been effected ; then I should have put all their
views together, and laid the case as completely as I
could before the Lieutenant-Governor, and left it to
him to decide where any curtailment should be made.
17608. Should Local Government have more power
in matters of appointment, travelling allowances,
pensions and such things ?—Yes, certainly.
17609. But not on larger matters ?—I am quite
content with the existing principles which govern the
relations between the Imperial Government and the
Local Government, which I think are good and sound.
17610. Are you quite satisfied that the budget
should be passed by the Government of India ?—Yes,
quite.
17611. Have you been a Commissioner long enough
to form an opinion with regard to the character of the
work which goes up to the Board of Revenue ?—No,
I think not. I would rather not express an opinion.
17612. When you were Secretary to the Finance
Department you dealt also with municipal affairs ? Do
you think it advisable to give wider powers to munici-
palities ?—I am not disposed to make any recom-
mendation for giving wider powers to municipalities at
present.
17613. Would you allow them more freedom in
exercising the powers that municipalities already
possess ?—-Yes.
17614. Would you allow them to exercise their
powers without so much Government intervention ?—-
No ; I think municipalities require a good deal of
control and supervision. I do rot think their offices
are very well run ; there is no good supervision over
them. You may have an energetic Chairman, who may
be good at out-door work, but, speaking generally, the
offices are not well supervised, and there is a want of
control over their conduct which reflects to a con-
siderable extent on the administration outside.
17615. You would not be prepared to go so far as to
allow them to make up their own budgets without
submission to the Government, and without the sanction
of the Government ?—I would not send them beyond
the Commissioner of the division—in fact, at present,
they do not go beyond the Commissioner.
17616. As Commissioner would you examine the
budget very closely ?—It is the District Magistrate
who examines it closely ; I do not. think the Com-
missioner would do so.
17617. Supposing you disagreed with a budget,
would you send it back, and would you make them
practically agree to what you wanted ?•—Only in an
extreme case ; I do not think one would interfere in
small matters unnecessarily.
17618. Then the existing power of control is not
very widely used ?—Personally I have never known
any municipality object to its budget being examined
and criticised ; on the whole, they rather like its being
examined for them.
17619. Do they like it for the reason that, in the
event of anything going wrong, or if there is grumbling
at the weight of taxation, they can shift the responsi-
bility on to the Government ?—No ; that would be
rather an unfair motive to attribute to them.
17620. Is it possible tc delegate further powers from
the District Boards to Local Boards ?—That is a very
complicated question ; at present I think the Local
Board is not serving a very useful purpose, and it is
a question whether we should take away from the
District Board and give to the Local Board, or whether
we should do without Local Boards altogether and
simply have District Boards and union committees.
Some re-distribution is required, but it is not quite
settled yet in what direction it should go.
17621. Broadly speaking, is it important that the
method of election should be amended ?—Yes.
17622. And when that is done, would you be pre-
pared to give Local Boards further powers ?—Yes, I
think so—that is the intention of the Local Govern-
ment, and I agree with it.
17623. District Boards have a pretty wide area to
deal with, and no member probably knows much about
the whole of it ?—I think they are not intimately
acquainted with the whole of it.
17624. Are they more likely to be interested in the
area of their own Local Board ?—Yes ; we hope they
will be, but at present they are not. There is more
life in a District Board.
17625. Is that because Local Boards have no money
of their own to deal with ?—Yes ; they have very little
to do, and the thing is not well arranged at present.
17626. Would you recommend that they should have
a definite portion of the cess to dispose of themselves ;
for example, would you give them power to deal with
education ?—I would not like to commit myself to
that ; I would like to give them as much freedom as
possible, but it is a very difficult question to argue.
17627. You are not prepared to say, then, broadly,
that you think they ought to have a definite income of
some kind?—No, not unless they were prepared to
raise more income by light local taxation.
17628. Supposing the Public Works Cess was handed
over to District Boards, would you then be prepared to
say they might have a portion of that ?—Theoretically
I would, but the difficulty then arises who is to spend
that money, and what the agency will be. At present
you have one District Engineer for a whole district,
and if you are going to divide the Road Cess money,
or the Public Works Cess money into four separate
shares, are you going to have four separate District
Engineers ?
17629. That objection would not apply to educa-
tion ?—Perhaps not ; they might be able to run their
own primary education to a large extent, and I should
like to see them as free as possible in respect to that.
17630. With regard-to authorities subordinate to a
Local Board I understand that there are two kinds
of organizations ; there is a chaukidari panchayat and
there is also a union committee ?—There are two such
bodies in existence.
17631. Does the chaukidari panchayat merely deal
with police matters ?—Yes. A union committee is a
different thing under the Local Self-Government Act.
17632. Have union committees not been quite
successful ?—They have not much life as yet, and the
Local Government have sent proposals to the Govern-
ment of India to expand their spheres of usefulness.
17633. If they ought to be expanded, would you do
it on the lines of unions of villages or would you make
each village a unit by itself ?—On the whole a union
of villages would be better. You might possibly get
one village too small to be a municipality, and quite
big enough to be a union of itself.
17634. Would the villagers in one village be inte-
rested in the affairs of another village?—On the
whole, one would suppose not.
17635. A priori does it not seem likely that a body
with more life would be created if it was confined to