DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0135
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
129
single villages as far as possible ?—It is rather dan-
gerous to theorise, and you must deal with facts as you
find them. On the whole, I am inclined to small
groups of villages, although there are some villages
which are big enough to be a union of themselves.
17636. Do you propose to give them powers of
taxation ?—'Yes, powers of light local taxation, princi-
pally for sanitation.
17637. Would they have anything to do with
education ?—I hardly think so, although if there were
a primary school in the union it is just possible they
might have a certain amount to do with it.
17638. (Mr. Dutt.) When is the Bengal budget sent
up to the Government of India?—There are three
editions of the budget and the final submission is in
the beginning of the month of March.
17639. When is the sanction generally received?—
It is announced at the end of March, although we
know un-officially, or possibly even officially, if any
serious change is made.
17640. That budget is discussed in the Bengal
Council ?—Yes. In April or a fortnight afterwards.
17641. Could the Bengal Government, before send-
ing the budget to the Government of India for
Sanction, take the opinion of the Bengal Council ?
Could the Bengal Government do anything in the way
of modifying the budget after getting the sanction of
the Government of India ?—I cannot answer that
question off hand.
17642. Would you prefer such a thing with view to
ensuring an opportunity to make modifications of the
budget previously to its submission to the Govern-
ment of India ?—I should think that would be a de-
velopment. We had the budget discussed informally
last year. I think what you suggest is possible, and if
it turns out to be possible, I should like to see a de-
velopment on those lines.
17643. With regard to nominated members sitting
on District Boards, is it your opinion that as soon as
they are nominated they lose the confidence of their
countrymen ?—No, that is not my opinion—not ab-
solutely as you state it. I do not see why they should
lose the confidence either of their countrymen or the
villagers.
17644. How long were you a Collector?—For about
four or five years.
17645. Did you find that some of the members of
the District Board were doing useful work ?—Yes, there
were always some members who did good work, and
some who were not so much interested.
17646. You would not agree in the opinion that
their main object in being elected as members of
District Boards was to advertise themselves ?—No,
speaking generally. No doubt there were cases of the
kind, but I would not make that as a general statement.
17647. It has been suggested that small zemindars
and raiyats should send representatives from their own
class to local bodies. Do you think that in small
sub-divisions this class would find suitable repre-
sentatives from amongst their people ?—It is to be
hoped that they will.
17648. Supposing they did not, and that they wished
to send a man from another class to represent their
interests more effectually, would you prevent them
doing so ?—Yes, I think they had better send one of
their own class.
17649. Suppose they wished to send a man, more
able and intelligent, to represent their interests?—I
should like to wait till the contingency really arises
before expressing an opinion upon that matter.
17650. As regards your proposal that the whole of
the province of Bengal might be divided into four
great divisions, is not the province practically so
divided now, except that there are six divisions instead
of four ?—I should not say that, because I develop my
proposals.
17651. It is your idea that Sub-Governors or Heads
of divisions should have Secretaries of their own ? —
My suggestions are only a very rough idea, but I
should think not. At present the Commissioner has a
personal assistant, and possibly he might have two
personal assistants, but that is a matter which would
require to be thought out. I do not contemplate a
regular Secretariat.
17652. Would you have separate Heads of Depart-
ments in those sub-provinces ?—No, I think they would
not be required.
17653. For instance, there is a Director of Public
Instruction for the whole of Bengal ; would you allow
that Director to control the educational operations in
Bihar, or would you allow him only to be an adviser ?
—You have the inspector at present and the inspector
would work under the Commissioner’s orders ; the
policy would be laid down by the Lieutenant-Governor
after consulting his departmental adviser, and the
departmental adviser would tell the Commissioner
what to do.
17654. So in the Medical Department and other
departments would you have special officers as Heads
in the sub-provinces ?—Not in the Medical Depart-
ment, you would not require any one at all there,
because you would have your Civil Surgeon for each
district.
17655. But who would control the Civil Surgeons?
—There is the professional control of the Inspector-
General.
17656. Who would pass orders as to transferring
them from place to place ?—My idea is that if you
had a staff allocated to a sub-province, it would be the
Commissioner himself. Civil Surgeons are not trans-
ferred every day, or at least they ought not to be.
With five districts in a division there would be only
five Civil Surgeons and a certain number of assistants ;
the Civil Surgeon would report that he wanted an
assistant and the Commissioner would try to find him
one from another district.
Mr. H. J.
McIntosh.
3 Ian., 1908.
17657. You say Heads of Departments should not
be allowed to dictate to the Heads of sub-provinces
the action to be taken by them, but are there certain
matters in which their instructions would have to be
carried out by the Heads of sub - provinces ?—Yes,
they would advise. We should have to see how it
worked out—it is difficult to say exactly.
17658. If you were to delegate many of the powers
now possessed by the Board of Revenue to the Com-
missioners of divisions, might not the Board of
Revenue be curtailed ?—That is a question which
would have to be examined.
17659. In the event of that being the case, would the
members of the Board of Revenue be more valuable if
they were general colleagues of the Lieutenant-
Governor, in revenue as well as in other matters—in
fact if they were members of a Council for Bengal ?—
That is not the scheme I put forward myself ; my
scheme scarcely fits in with what you suggest. Yours
is not a scheme which I could recommend.
17660. With regard to your views as to the duties of
Commissioners, might not the object be served if you
created Advisory Boards for Commisioners and District
Officers ?—No, I do not think so. I do not quite
understand what you mean by an “ Advisory Board,”
or what its functions would be. I say we have certain
Boards and Local Bodies at present, and I do not want
to see another Local Body super-impose upon them.
17661. District Boards have certain definite duties
to perform under the Act, and if there are other
matters in which the Collector wants co-operation, can
he go to the District Board under the Act ?—The Act
does not say that he cannot go to them ; he can con-
sult them at a District Board meeting after he has
performed, or before he has performed, the business
which is on the list. Very often Government sends
down and asks the opinion of the District Board which
records a formal opinion which is sent to the Govern-
ment.
17662. When the Government or a Collector wishes
for an opinion, is an informal discussion with the
members of the Board enough ?—I think informal dis-
cussion is quite enough, and it is very useful, and is
generally sought by a District Officer or Commissioner.
17663. Are not the sub-inspectors of schools, who-
used to be servants of the District Boards, now
Government servants ?—Yes. The change was made
about two years ago.
17664. Would you approve of the idea of primary
education being managed by the Boards through their
own servants as it used to be ?—On the whole, I would
like to see primary education managed by the local
authorities as much as possible ; that is my general
opinion without committing myself to details.
33263
129
single villages as far as possible ?—It is rather dan-
gerous to theorise, and you must deal with facts as you
find them. On the whole, I am inclined to small
groups of villages, although there are some villages
which are big enough to be a union of themselves.
17636. Do you propose to give them powers of
taxation ?—'Yes, powers of light local taxation, princi-
pally for sanitation.
17637. Would they have anything to do with
education ?—I hardly think so, although if there were
a primary school in the union it is just possible they
might have a certain amount to do with it.
17638. (Mr. Dutt.) When is the Bengal budget sent
up to the Government of India?—There are three
editions of the budget and the final submission is in
the beginning of the month of March.
17639. When is the sanction generally received?—
It is announced at the end of March, although we
know un-officially, or possibly even officially, if any
serious change is made.
17640. That budget is discussed in the Bengal
Council ?—Yes. In April or a fortnight afterwards.
17641. Could the Bengal Government, before send-
ing the budget to the Government of India for
Sanction, take the opinion of the Bengal Council ?
Could the Bengal Government do anything in the way
of modifying the budget after getting the sanction of
the Government of India ?—I cannot answer that
question off hand.
17642. Would you prefer such a thing with view to
ensuring an opportunity to make modifications of the
budget previously to its submission to the Govern-
ment of India ?—I should think that would be a de-
velopment. We had the budget discussed informally
last year. I think what you suggest is possible, and if
it turns out to be possible, I should like to see a de-
velopment on those lines.
17643. With regard to nominated members sitting
on District Boards, is it your opinion that as soon as
they are nominated they lose the confidence of their
countrymen ?—No, that is not my opinion—not ab-
solutely as you state it. I do not see why they should
lose the confidence either of their countrymen or the
villagers.
17644. How long were you a Collector?—For about
four or five years.
17645. Did you find that some of the members of
the District Board were doing useful work ?—Yes, there
were always some members who did good work, and
some who were not so much interested.
17646. You would not agree in the opinion that
their main object in being elected as members of
District Boards was to advertise themselves ?—No,
speaking generally. No doubt there were cases of the
kind, but I would not make that as a general statement.
17647. It has been suggested that small zemindars
and raiyats should send representatives from their own
class to local bodies. Do you think that in small
sub-divisions this class would find suitable repre-
sentatives from amongst their people ?—It is to be
hoped that they will.
17648. Supposing they did not, and that they wished
to send a man from another class to represent their
interests more effectually, would you prevent them
doing so ?—Yes, I think they had better send one of
their own class.
17649. Suppose they wished to send a man, more
able and intelligent, to represent their interests?—I
should like to wait till the contingency really arises
before expressing an opinion upon that matter.
17650. As regards your proposal that the whole of
the province of Bengal might be divided into four
great divisions, is not the province practically so
divided now, except that there are six divisions instead
of four ?—I should not say that, because I develop my
proposals.
17651. It is your idea that Sub-Governors or Heads
of divisions should have Secretaries of their own ? —
My suggestions are only a very rough idea, but I
should think not. At present the Commissioner has a
personal assistant, and possibly he might have two
personal assistants, but that is a matter which would
require to be thought out. I do not contemplate a
regular Secretariat.
17652. Would you have separate Heads of Depart-
ments in those sub-provinces ?—No, I think they would
not be required.
17653. For instance, there is a Director of Public
Instruction for the whole of Bengal ; would you allow
that Director to control the educational operations in
Bihar, or would you allow him only to be an adviser ?
—You have the inspector at present and the inspector
would work under the Commissioner’s orders ; the
policy would be laid down by the Lieutenant-Governor
after consulting his departmental adviser, and the
departmental adviser would tell the Commissioner
what to do.
17654. So in the Medical Department and other
departments would you have special officers as Heads
in the sub-provinces ?—Not in the Medical Depart-
ment, you would not require any one at all there,
because you would have your Civil Surgeon for each
district.
17655. But who would control the Civil Surgeons?
—There is the professional control of the Inspector-
General.
17656. Who would pass orders as to transferring
them from place to place ?—My idea is that if you
had a staff allocated to a sub-province, it would be the
Commissioner himself. Civil Surgeons are not trans-
ferred every day, or at least they ought not to be.
With five districts in a division there would be only
five Civil Surgeons and a certain number of assistants ;
the Civil Surgeon would report that he wanted an
assistant and the Commissioner would try to find him
one from another district.
Mr. H. J.
McIntosh.
3 Ian., 1908.
17657. You say Heads of Departments should not
be allowed to dictate to the Heads of sub-provinces
the action to be taken by them, but are there certain
matters in which their instructions would have to be
carried out by the Heads of sub - provinces ?—Yes,
they would advise. We should have to see how it
worked out—it is difficult to say exactly.
17658. If you were to delegate many of the powers
now possessed by the Board of Revenue to the Com-
missioners of divisions, might not the Board of
Revenue be curtailed ?—That is a question which
would have to be examined.
17659. In the event of that being the case, would the
members of the Board of Revenue be more valuable if
they were general colleagues of the Lieutenant-
Governor, in revenue as well as in other matters—in
fact if they were members of a Council for Bengal ?—
That is not the scheme I put forward myself ; my
scheme scarcely fits in with what you suggest. Yours
is not a scheme which I could recommend.
17660. With regard to your views as to the duties of
Commissioners, might not the object be served if you
created Advisory Boards for Commisioners and District
Officers ?—No, I do not think so. I do not quite
understand what you mean by an “ Advisory Board,”
or what its functions would be. I say we have certain
Boards and Local Bodies at present, and I do not want
to see another Local Body super-impose upon them.
17661. District Boards have certain definite duties
to perform under the Act, and if there are other
matters in which the Collector wants co-operation, can
he go to the District Board under the Act ?—The Act
does not say that he cannot go to them ; he can con-
sult them at a District Board meeting after he has
performed, or before he has performed, the business
which is on the list. Very often Government sends
down and asks the opinion of the District Board which
records a formal opinion which is sent to the Govern-
ment.
17662. When the Government or a Collector wishes
for an opinion, is an informal discussion with the
members of the Board enough ?—I think informal dis-
cussion is quite enough, and it is very useful, and is
generally sought by a District Officer or Commissioner.
17663. Are not the sub-inspectors of schools, who-
used to be servants of the District Boards, now
Government servants ?—Yes. The change was made
about two years ago.
17664. Would you approve of the idea of primary
education being managed by the Boards through their
own servants as it used to be ?—On the whole, I would
like to see primary education managed by the local
authorities as much as possible ; that is my general
opinion without committing myself to details.
33263