DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0136
130
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Mr. H. J.
"McIntosh.
3 Jan., 1908.
Mr. A.
Ahmad.
3 Jan., 1908.
17665. With regard to village panchayats would you
like to entrust them with the power of disposing
of petty civil and criminal cases in the villages ?—I
would, but I would not say it would be feasible to
entrust them with such powers.
17666. Would you like to try the experiment of
letting the villagers settle their own disputes in small
village matters if proper men could be found in the
villages ?—I do not see any hope of success. We have
a very complicated and intricate judicial system, and if
you add that to it, I presume you would allow appeals
to a higher authority, and if the procedure is hopelessly
bad from the beginning it would never do to have such
a system if it could be all upset because of irregularities
in procedure.
17667. Are there not Honorary Magistrates in
villages sometimes ?—Yes.
17668. Would you like to associate the Honorary
Magistrate with two or three villagers so as to form a
Bench to dispose of cases ?—We have the Bench system
already in fairly large villages—not in every village-
but in most sub-divisions you have two or three
Benches, and cases come up on appeal to the District
Magistrate. Their procedure is frequently found to
be not so correct as the law contemplates, although
they might do justice with regard to the actual case.
17669. On the whole, do you think the work of
criminal administration by these Benches satisfactory ?
—I should be glad if they had more of it ; they do a
certain amount of good work.
17670. Would you like to try the experiment in
other places ?—I am always in favour of having work
done by such an agency, and the more done by them,
the better.
17671. (Sir Frederic Lely.} You mentioned that it
would tend greatly to reduce the number of transfers
within a province if the Government of India were to
give longer notice when they require the services of an
officer ; has that suggestion ever been made officially ?
—I am not aware that it has.
17672. Is every district in Bengal divided into sub-
divisions ?—Most districts are, but there are some
which have no sub-divisions. In my division there are
two—Palamau and Singhbhum—which have no sub-
divisions.
17673. In whose charge are sub-divisions ?—They
are in charge of what we call a Sub-Divisional Officer,
who may be a young Civilian or a member of the
Provincial Service.
17674. Is his work limited to certain things, criminal,
magisterial and Local Board work ?—-Yes, and in some,
sub-divisions there is some revenue work—for instance,
if there was a famine or serious scarcity, he would be
responsible for looking after that.
17675. But he is not in full administrative charge
of a sub-division under the Collector ?—Not absolutely.
He is in charge in a limited way.
17676. Does he tour?—Yes.
17677. If it was wished to enlist the advice and help
of the people more in the work of Government, how
would you proceed ? — My own suggestion is less
routine and office work for the District Officers, so as
to enable them to mix more freely with the people of
the district. I have no organic change to suggest.
17678. Would you, for instance, begin with some of
the best District Boards and make them entirely elec-
tive, as an experiment ?—I never object to any experi-
ment, and it might well be tried.
17679. Is not the present system, under which
Government nominates a third, merely enough to take
the majority-vote out of its hands, while at the same
time it may involve a certain amount of odium for
mis-government ?—I do not think so.
17680. Do not the people say that Government
nominates the wrong men ?—I do not think so.
17681. With regard to District Boards, is primary
education chiefly confined to what we call the guru
schools? Would not the management of those schools
be more appropriately left to the villages than to the
District Boards ?—But there are many villages where
you would find no one very keen upon superintending
the guru schools.
17682. But if willing villagers could be found would
they not be more appropriate agents ?—Theoretically ;
the more you localise, the better.
(jT7te witness withdrew.)
Mr. A. Ahmad was called and examined.
17683. (Chairman.) You are the Magistrate and
Collector of Khulna ?—Yes, I have 26 years’ service.
Long experience has shown that the Heads of
Departments must be members of the Indian Civil
Service recruited from England. Any deviation from
this established rule will break up the administration
into so many branches without the efficiency of control
which is now felt and acknowledged on all hands. It
may be urged that a special Department requires expert
opinion and expert knowledge in a particular sphere of
action. That I accept and would allow details and
special treatment to be dealt by qualified experts from
Europe. At the same time the control of the depart-
ment and its administration must remain with the
Indian Civil Service. Another point in relation to the
administration which calls for attention is the cry of
the people, the educated classes, for a greater voice in
the administration. This can also be effected by a
judicious admixture of the people with the administra-
tion. At the present moment district areas are too
large to be properly governed by one man, and the
assistants allowed to him are often too few. The work
demanded of him is of varied description requiring at
times superhuman effort. He is hampered in his
endeavour by rules and regulations which insist on his
going to higher authorities for sanction or to zealous
departments for advice or to subordinates who offer
allegiance to him on sufferance.
To remedy these drawbacks I would expand the pre-
sent administrative unit and make the chaulcidari circle
the unit of the administration. Members of panchayats
and their Presidents would be elected by the people
and subsequently appointed or selected by the District
Officer. These in their turn should elect members of
the District Council who should meet once a month at
the headquarters of a district. The Collector of the
district should be its President. All matters which
are now discussed and settled by District Boards and
municipalities should be dealt with by this Council.
The number of members elected should be supple-
mented by local officers of different departments.
This Council will prepare the budget, administer the
local funds, and assist the District Officer and the
Executive with advice, help and assistance. From
this body of councillors a number of members, includ-
ing officers of Government, should be selected to
represent the provincial Advisory Council. The actual
work in a district will be done by the Executive as
now, but with more independent powers from the
divisional and other higher authorities. Commis-
sioners of divisions and the members of the Board
of Revenue should become Executive Councillors to
Government. Powers and duties should be delegated
to the Commissioners of divisions and Heads of
Departments, and orders passed by them as represent-
ing the Council should be final. The powers of
Collectors should similarly be enlarged and they should
be independent of the Commissioners’ control but
directly under the Lieutenant-Governor and his Exe-
cutive Council, which is distinct and separate from the
Advisory Council of the province, which would be an
assembly of mixed officials and non-officials without
any executive powers. The Commissioners should be
added to the Advisory Council to assist in legislation
affecting the administration of the province. The
Secretaries should remain the same as now, and as the
work with Government will become heavier they
should be assisted by extra officers and staff now
working in the Commissioner’s office and in the Board
of Revenue and other Departments.
I am against the multiplicity of appeals. When
two Courts are of the same opinion no further appeals
should be allowed. I would invest the local panchayat
with summary powers to try petty criminal cases and
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Mr. H. J.
"McIntosh.
3 Jan., 1908.
Mr. A.
Ahmad.
3 Jan., 1908.
17665. With regard to village panchayats would you
like to entrust them with the power of disposing
of petty civil and criminal cases in the villages ?—I
would, but I would not say it would be feasible to
entrust them with such powers.
17666. Would you like to try the experiment of
letting the villagers settle their own disputes in small
village matters if proper men could be found in the
villages ?—I do not see any hope of success. We have
a very complicated and intricate judicial system, and if
you add that to it, I presume you would allow appeals
to a higher authority, and if the procedure is hopelessly
bad from the beginning it would never do to have such
a system if it could be all upset because of irregularities
in procedure.
17667. Are there not Honorary Magistrates in
villages sometimes ?—Yes.
17668. Would you like to associate the Honorary
Magistrate with two or three villagers so as to form a
Bench to dispose of cases ?—We have the Bench system
already in fairly large villages—not in every village-
but in most sub-divisions you have two or three
Benches, and cases come up on appeal to the District
Magistrate. Their procedure is frequently found to
be not so correct as the law contemplates, although
they might do justice with regard to the actual case.
17669. On the whole, do you think the work of
criminal administration by these Benches satisfactory ?
—I should be glad if they had more of it ; they do a
certain amount of good work.
17670. Would you like to try the experiment in
other places ?—I am always in favour of having work
done by such an agency, and the more done by them,
the better.
17671. (Sir Frederic Lely.} You mentioned that it
would tend greatly to reduce the number of transfers
within a province if the Government of India were to
give longer notice when they require the services of an
officer ; has that suggestion ever been made officially ?
—I am not aware that it has.
17672. Is every district in Bengal divided into sub-
divisions ?—Most districts are, but there are some
which have no sub-divisions. In my division there are
two—Palamau and Singhbhum—which have no sub-
divisions.
17673. In whose charge are sub-divisions ?—They
are in charge of what we call a Sub-Divisional Officer,
who may be a young Civilian or a member of the
Provincial Service.
17674. Is his work limited to certain things, criminal,
magisterial and Local Board work ?—-Yes, and in some,
sub-divisions there is some revenue work—for instance,
if there was a famine or serious scarcity, he would be
responsible for looking after that.
17675. But he is not in full administrative charge
of a sub-division under the Collector ?—Not absolutely.
He is in charge in a limited way.
17676. Does he tour?—Yes.
17677. If it was wished to enlist the advice and help
of the people more in the work of Government, how
would you proceed ? — My own suggestion is less
routine and office work for the District Officers, so as
to enable them to mix more freely with the people of
the district. I have no organic change to suggest.
17678. Would you, for instance, begin with some of
the best District Boards and make them entirely elec-
tive, as an experiment ?—I never object to any experi-
ment, and it might well be tried.
17679. Is not the present system, under which
Government nominates a third, merely enough to take
the majority-vote out of its hands, while at the same
time it may involve a certain amount of odium for
mis-government ?—I do not think so.
17680. Do not the people say that Government
nominates the wrong men ?—I do not think so.
17681. With regard to District Boards, is primary
education chiefly confined to what we call the guru
schools? Would not the management of those schools
be more appropriately left to the villages than to the
District Boards ?—But there are many villages where
you would find no one very keen upon superintending
the guru schools.
17682. But if willing villagers could be found would
they not be more appropriate agents ?—Theoretically ;
the more you localise, the better.
(jT7te witness withdrew.)
Mr. A. Ahmad was called and examined.
17683. (Chairman.) You are the Magistrate and
Collector of Khulna ?—Yes, I have 26 years’ service.
Long experience has shown that the Heads of
Departments must be members of the Indian Civil
Service recruited from England. Any deviation from
this established rule will break up the administration
into so many branches without the efficiency of control
which is now felt and acknowledged on all hands. It
may be urged that a special Department requires expert
opinion and expert knowledge in a particular sphere of
action. That I accept and would allow details and
special treatment to be dealt by qualified experts from
Europe. At the same time the control of the depart-
ment and its administration must remain with the
Indian Civil Service. Another point in relation to the
administration which calls for attention is the cry of
the people, the educated classes, for a greater voice in
the administration. This can also be effected by a
judicious admixture of the people with the administra-
tion. At the present moment district areas are too
large to be properly governed by one man, and the
assistants allowed to him are often too few. The work
demanded of him is of varied description requiring at
times superhuman effort. He is hampered in his
endeavour by rules and regulations which insist on his
going to higher authorities for sanction or to zealous
departments for advice or to subordinates who offer
allegiance to him on sufferance.
To remedy these drawbacks I would expand the pre-
sent administrative unit and make the chaulcidari circle
the unit of the administration. Members of panchayats
and their Presidents would be elected by the people
and subsequently appointed or selected by the District
Officer. These in their turn should elect members of
the District Council who should meet once a month at
the headquarters of a district. The Collector of the
district should be its President. All matters which
are now discussed and settled by District Boards and
municipalities should be dealt with by this Council.
The number of members elected should be supple-
mented by local officers of different departments.
This Council will prepare the budget, administer the
local funds, and assist the District Officer and the
Executive with advice, help and assistance. From
this body of councillors a number of members, includ-
ing officers of Government, should be selected to
represent the provincial Advisory Council. The actual
work in a district will be done by the Executive as
now, but with more independent powers from the
divisional and other higher authorities. Commis-
sioners of divisions and the members of the Board
of Revenue should become Executive Councillors to
Government. Powers and duties should be delegated
to the Commissioners of divisions and Heads of
Departments, and orders passed by them as represent-
ing the Council should be final. The powers of
Collectors should similarly be enlarged and they should
be independent of the Commissioners’ control but
directly under the Lieutenant-Governor and his Exe-
cutive Council, which is distinct and separate from the
Advisory Council of the province, which would be an
assembly of mixed officials and non-officials without
any executive powers. The Commissioners should be
added to the Advisory Council to assist in legislation
affecting the administration of the province. The
Secretaries should remain the same as now, and as the
work with Government will become heavier they
should be assisted by extra officers and staff now
working in the Commissioner’s office and in the Board
of Revenue and other Departments.
I am against the multiplicity of appeals. When
two Courts are of the same opinion no further appeals
should be allowed. I would invest the local panchayat
with summary powers to try petty criminal cases and