DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0160
154
minutes of evidence:
Babu
Bhupendra-
“nath Basu.
2.8 Jan., 1908.
18116. Are the present powers which municipalities
have adequate ?■—For their present purposes they are
adequate, but they are subject to too much inter-
ference, which ought not to be the case. I mean
interference with the budget and with trifling details.
The District Officer interferes too much in every trifling
detail, causing unnecessary friction, and where it is
probably not at all needed.
18117. Is the Chairman of the municipality which
you have in your mind in making that statement an
official or a non-official ?—He is a non-official.
18118. Does he prepare the budget?—The budget
is prepared by the Secretary and the Vice-Chairman.
18119. Both of whom are non-officials ?—Yes, but
it is done with the knowledge of the Chairman and
with the help of a committee. The municipality is
divided into committees for the purpose of doing work.
They work satisfactorily.
18120. When the budget is prepared and sent to the
Commissioner- does he interfere with it too much ?—
It is not the Commissioner but the District Officer
who interferes ; then the matter goes up to the Com-
missioner and he does not often revise what the
District Officer has done, except in very special cases
where there is an appeal to him by the municipality,
when the matter has to be gone into. Otherwise the
budget as finally approved and passed by the District
Officer- is the budget sanctioned by the Commis-
sioner.
18121. Is the budget before it is sent to the District
Officer circulated amongst the members of the Muni-
cipal Council?—Yes, generally about a fortnight before
the meeting.
18122. At all events you think that once the Muni-
cipal Council have agreed to the budget, unless there
is some serious defect in it, it ought not to be altered ?
—I think at least the minor heads ought not to be
disturbed, and as regards the major heads I would
suggest that the total allotment may be sanctioned by
the District Officer and Commissioner, the internal
details being left to be worked out by the munici-
pality.
18123. Is there much interest taken in the govern-
ment of the town by the members of the municipality ?
—Yes, they take a good deal of interest.
18124. Apart from the question of the submission
of the budget, have municipalities ample discretion
and power ?—Yes ; within the scope of their functions
they have quite sufficient power to act.
18125. Are their functions wide enough?—I think
so. They do not possess the power of raising money
at present except in the case of very exceptionally big
municipalities, and I do not think any such power is
desirable or necessary.
18126. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.') Are the people
generally in this country interested in municipal
administration ?—They are, because it affects them
locally.
18127. Do they feel that they are responsible to the
public ?—Yes, and I think that is felt at the time of
the elections principally. If a Commissioner has not
discharged his duties well his chances of re-election
are considerably diminished.
18128. Would you say that generally of most mufassal.
municipalities in Bengal ?—As far as my experience
goes, I think I may say that generally municipalities
vary according to the degree of education and public
spirit in a particular province, but my experience
which is more or less confined to the Presidency
Division, shows that the people do take sufficient
interest in municipal government.
18129. (Mr. Meyer.) Should the provincial budget
be controlled by the Government of India, or are you
in favour of complete independence subject to the
vote of the Council ?—The budget, on the whole,
ought to be controlled by the Government of India.
Not as to details, but as to the budget itself.
18130. Would it be an improvement, as has been
suggested, if all the provincial figures were dropped
out of the Imperial budget and only the figures with
which the Imperial Government had to deal directly
were included ?—I have not considered that aspect of
the question sufficiently well to be able to give a
definite reply, but I think it would be an advantage. I
am inclined to think that if the Imperial budget were
less burdened with details as to provincial administra-
tion it would in some respects be an advantage.
18131. How would you find out what the Indian
Government as a whole, provincial and Imperial, was
spending on such a matter as education for instance ?
—The allotments would appear.. The Imperial budget
would show the allotments made to the different
Governments, and need not go into further detail in
order to show the minor provincial expenditure.
18132. Do you desire that the Local Government
should have full power in agreement with its provincial
Council to spend money on works, whatever the value
of the works ?—The Local Government and its Council
ought to be the best judges, subject to the general
control of the Supreme Government. The budget
when framed should show the allotments made, but
there does not seem to me to be any necessity for
interference with the details.
18133. Supposing the provincial Government pro-
posed to build a new college costing 15 lakhs of rupees ;
under present circumstances that would have to be
sanctioned by the Government of India and the
Secretary iof State. Would you relax that restriction ?
—If a Council were constituted on which the voice of
non-officials could make itself felt, and if the budget
allowed it, I do not see why the discretion of the
provincial Governments should be fettered.
18134. Would you therefore relax the restrictions
imposed by the Secretary of State as well as those
imposed by the Government of India ?—Not as a
general control, but the development of a scheme has
to go backwards and forwards between the Imperial
Government and the provincial Government and the
Secretary of State, and its final execution is so greatly
delayed that the original intention of the scheme
probably is forgotten, and it is not carried out in its
finality with the same degree of completeness and
enthusiasm as it would have been carried out if all
these detailed negotiations had not been required.
Therefore, if within the limits of its budget a
provincial Government, with the sanction of its
Council, formulates a scheme which is sanctioned by
the Supreme Government or the Secretary of State, in
my opinion further interference is not needed and is
not beneficial.
18135. Would you apply that also to the creation of
new appointments in the event of a scheme for the
creation of new districts involving additional Collector-
ships and Judgeships ?—I think the cost of new
appointments involving the appointments of European
officers should receive the sanction of the Secretary of
State as it does now.
18136. Do you mean that in any case you would
keep the existing restrictions on new i appointments
which might be filled by European Officers ?—Yes, and
as regards other appointments, if the scheme were
sanctioned by the Secretary of State or the Supreme
Government, I would vest the Local Government with
power to make them.
18137. As regards the borrowing powers of Local
Governments, you wish to confine them to productive
public works. Are the canals in Bengal productive ?
—Yes, in many parts. They have been productive in
many parts of Bihar, both as a means of transit and
as a means of irrigation.
18138. But have they yielded enough to cover their
working expenses and make a profit ?—My impression
is that the canals in Bihar are productive ; I would
not advocate borrowing money upon works which are
not estimated to yield sufficient return enough to
cover the interest.
18139. Is your principle that the Local Government
should not be allowed to borrow for works which will
impose a permanent burden upon it, but for works
which will pay in the long run ?—Yes, because in
those cases money might be borrowed on more
favourable terms than by the Supreme Government,
and it would be unwise to burden the finances of the
Local Government with a liability which would be
more easily borne if undertaken by the Supreme
Government.
18140. Are you aware that at present the Supreme
Government undertakes productive works and gets as
much money as it can from them ?—Yes.
minutes of evidence:
Babu
Bhupendra-
“nath Basu.
2.8 Jan., 1908.
18116. Are the present powers which municipalities
have adequate ?■—For their present purposes they are
adequate, but they are subject to too much inter-
ference, which ought not to be the case. I mean
interference with the budget and with trifling details.
The District Officer interferes too much in every trifling
detail, causing unnecessary friction, and where it is
probably not at all needed.
18117. Is the Chairman of the municipality which
you have in your mind in making that statement an
official or a non-official ?—He is a non-official.
18118. Does he prepare the budget?—The budget
is prepared by the Secretary and the Vice-Chairman.
18119. Both of whom are non-officials ?—Yes, but
it is done with the knowledge of the Chairman and
with the help of a committee. The municipality is
divided into committees for the purpose of doing work.
They work satisfactorily.
18120. When the budget is prepared and sent to the
Commissioner- does he interfere with it too much ?—
It is not the Commissioner but the District Officer
who interferes ; then the matter goes up to the Com-
missioner and he does not often revise what the
District Officer has done, except in very special cases
where there is an appeal to him by the municipality,
when the matter has to be gone into. Otherwise the
budget as finally approved and passed by the District
Officer- is the budget sanctioned by the Commis-
sioner.
18121. Is the budget before it is sent to the District
Officer circulated amongst the members of the Muni-
cipal Council?—Yes, generally about a fortnight before
the meeting.
18122. At all events you think that once the Muni-
cipal Council have agreed to the budget, unless there
is some serious defect in it, it ought not to be altered ?
—I think at least the minor heads ought not to be
disturbed, and as regards the major heads I would
suggest that the total allotment may be sanctioned by
the District Officer and Commissioner, the internal
details being left to be worked out by the munici-
pality.
18123. Is there much interest taken in the govern-
ment of the town by the members of the municipality ?
—Yes, they take a good deal of interest.
18124. Apart from the question of the submission
of the budget, have municipalities ample discretion
and power ?—Yes ; within the scope of their functions
they have quite sufficient power to act.
18125. Are their functions wide enough?—I think
so. They do not possess the power of raising money
at present except in the case of very exceptionally big
municipalities, and I do not think any such power is
desirable or necessary.
18126. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.') Are the people
generally in this country interested in municipal
administration ?—They are, because it affects them
locally.
18127. Do they feel that they are responsible to the
public ?—Yes, and I think that is felt at the time of
the elections principally. If a Commissioner has not
discharged his duties well his chances of re-election
are considerably diminished.
18128. Would you say that generally of most mufassal.
municipalities in Bengal ?—As far as my experience
goes, I think I may say that generally municipalities
vary according to the degree of education and public
spirit in a particular province, but my experience
which is more or less confined to the Presidency
Division, shows that the people do take sufficient
interest in municipal government.
18129. (Mr. Meyer.) Should the provincial budget
be controlled by the Government of India, or are you
in favour of complete independence subject to the
vote of the Council ?—The budget, on the whole,
ought to be controlled by the Government of India.
Not as to details, but as to the budget itself.
18130. Would it be an improvement, as has been
suggested, if all the provincial figures were dropped
out of the Imperial budget and only the figures with
which the Imperial Government had to deal directly
were included ?—I have not considered that aspect of
the question sufficiently well to be able to give a
definite reply, but I think it would be an advantage. I
am inclined to think that if the Imperial budget were
less burdened with details as to provincial administra-
tion it would in some respects be an advantage.
18131. How would you find out what the Indian
Government as a whole, provincial and Imperial, was
spending on such a matter as education for instance ?
—The allotments would appear.. The Imperial budget
would show the allotments made to the different
Governments, and need not go into further detail in
order to show the minor provincial expenditure.
18132. Do you desire that the Local Government
should have full power in agreement with its provincial
Council to spend money on works, whatever the value
of the works ?—The Local Government and its Council
ought to be the best judges, subject to the general
control of the Supreme Government. The budget
when framed should show the allotments made, but
there does not seem to me to be any necessity for
interference with the details.
18133. Supposing the provincial Government pro-
posed to build a new college costing 15 lakhs of rupees ;
under present circumstances that would have to be
sanctioned by the Government of India and the
Secretary iof State. Would you relax that restriction ?
—If a Council were constituted on which the voice of
non-officials could make itself felt, and if the budget
allowed it, I do not see why the discretion of the
provincial Governments should be fettered.
18134. Would you therefore relax the restrictions
imposed by the Secretary of State as well as those
imposed by the Government of India ?—Not as a
general control, but the development of a scheme has
to go backwards and forwards between the Imperial
Government and the provincial Government and the
Secretary of State, and its final execution is so greatly
delayed that the original intention of the scheme
probably is forgotten, and it is not carried out in its
finality with the same degree of completeness and
enthusiasm as it would have been carried out if all
these detailed negotiations had not been required.
Therefore, if within the limits of its budget a
provincial Government, with the sanction of its
Council, formulates a scheme which is sanctioned by
the Supreme Government or the Secretary of State, in
my opinion further interference is not needed and is
not beneficial.
18135. Would you apply that also to the creation of
new appointments in the event of a scheme for the
creation of new districts involving additional Collector-
ships and Judgeships ?—I think the cost of new
appointments involving the appointments of European
officers should receive the sanction of the Secretary of
State as it does now.
18136. Do you mean that in any case you would
keep the existing restrictions on new i appointments
which might be filled by European Officers ?—Yes, and
as regards other appointments, if the scheme were
sanctioned by the Secretary of State or the Supreme
Government, I would vest the Local Government with
power to make them.
18137. As regards the borrowing powers of Local
Governments, you wish to confine them to productive
public works. Are the canals in Bengal productive ?
—Yes, in many parts. They have been productive in
many parts of Bihar, both as a means of transit and
as a means of irrigation.
18138. But have they yielded enough to cover their
working expenses and make a profit ?—My impression
is that the canals in Bihar are productive ; I would
not advocate borrowing money upon works which are
not estimated to yield sufficient return enough to
cover the interest.
18139. Is your principle that the Local Government
should not be allowed to borrow for works which will
impose a permanent burden upon it, but for works
which will pay in the long run ?—Yes, because in
those cases money might be borrowed on more
favourable terms than by the Supreme Government,
and it would be unwise to burden the finances of the
Local Government with a liability which would be
more easily borne if undertaken by the Supreme
Government.
18140. Are you aware that at present the Supreme
Government undertakes productive works and gets as
much money as it can from them ?—Yes.