DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0161
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
155
18141. Do you think more money could be got if
the Local Government borrowed also ?—Yes, and
the Local Government might develop the resources
quicker, having more direct knowledge of the
necessities of local administration.
18142. Are you opposed to any general delegation
Act which in general terms would allow the Govern-
ment of India or the Local Government to delegate
any powers that the law has hitherto vested in them
to some subordinate authority ?—Yes.
18143. You want any delegation to be specifically
carried out by legislation ?—Yes. There are matters
contained in special enactments which might safely be
delegated to Commissioners, but those are matters
which ought to be clearly put before the public or the
Council. A general delegation Act would cover many
matters which I do not think could be safely delegated,
and therefore I am against a general delegation Act.
18144. You said that the Government of India had
no means of receiving information from the people,
but are there not elected non-official members as
advisers to the Legislative Council ?—Yes, there are.
18145. And is it not open to any Association, the
British India Association for instance, to put their
views before the Government of India, and do they
not habitually do so ?—They do so. As regards the
members of the Viceroy’s Council there is in Bengal
only one member for the whole province, and he is in
touch with the Government for a very short period in
the year ; for the greater part of the year he is not
in touch with the Supreme Government at all, and as
regards memorials they seldom produce the effect
which personal intercourse might produce.
18146. With regards to excise and what you thought
to be the tendency of the local officers to act counter
to the instructions of the Government of India, are
you aware that there was an Excise Committee
appointed by the Government of India to inquire
into that very subject amongst other things ?—Yes.
18147. Ought the Central Government to keep
control over the general lines of excise policy in India
in order to guard against that possible danger on the
part of local officers?—Yes. The Government of
Bengal, as at present constituted, and I believe other
Governments also, would follow the general lines of
policy laid down by the Supreme Government, but at
the same time I should prefer some control being
vested in the Supreme Government with regard to it.
18148. It has been suggested occasionally that in all
matters which Local Governments have the manage-
ment of, such as police, excise and education, they
should have generally a free hand and that the
Government of India should not interfere ; is that a
policy which would meet with your approval ?—I do
not agree with that view ; the Government of India
ought to control the policy.
18149. You say that Commissioners and Collectors
should be allowed to spend money, subject to sanction
within a certain limit for each division and district-
what matters have you specially in view ?—Various
matters which arise in the district ; for instance, if
there is an urgent call for relief or any small matters
involving expenditure.
18150. In the matter of Public Works, for instance,
would you like to see larger powers of sanction vested
in the Commissioner ?—Within a certain limit I would
fix an allotment. For instance, the Local Government
might fix so much as intended for a certain district or
division and the Commissioner might be allowed some
latitude as regards the way in which it was spent.
18151. That is to say you would break up the
provincial budget to a certain extent and give the
Commissioner powers of sanction within a smaller
budget ?—Yes.
18152. You have said that the young European
officer is less sympathetic than the older man ; would
that not possibly be due to the fact that occasionally
when he is young he finds that persons impose upon
him a little and make use of his friendship for their
own private purposes ?—I am not; aware that that is
done as a rule and that his sympathetic attitude
towards any particular class of individual is abused.
18153. Do you not know of any case in which an
Indian has made use of his alleged friendship with a
District Officer to get more things done for himself or
to spread abroad an impression that he was in close
touch with the Joint-Magistrate, for instance?—The
influence of a younger officer could not be utilised if it
were attempted to be for that purpose to the same
extent as the influence, for instance, of a Commissioner.
A District Officer after all has much smaller oppor-
tunities of things of that kind than the Commis-
sioner, and I do not apprehend that that is one of the
causes which keeps the District Officer to some extent
apart from the people.
Babu
Bhupendra-
nath Bam.
28 Jan., 1908.
18154. At any rate, as he gets older he gets more
accessible and perhaps he knows more who are the
useful people to talk to ?—He comes out as a junior
officer and with increasing experience he is able to
judge better, and appreciate better, the people than
when he first comes out. When he comes to know
their ways he makesconcessions for many things which
might have offended him to start with.
18155. At the beginning of his service he starts as a
Magistrate and is brought into contact with perhaps
the worst class of the people ?—Yes.
18156. It has been suggested elsewhere that that
might be remedied by putting the young Civilian, for
the first few months, not to work under a Collector,
but under a Settlement Officer, where he might mix
with the people more freely and have nothing to do
with criminal work : would you think that of any
use ?—It might be of use, but it has the danger that
settlement work is very serious work which requires
experience. From the point of view you put it to me
it might to some extent serve the purpose, but it
might on the other hand prove injurious to the people
whose interests would be placed in the hands of the
Settlement Officer.
18157. I do not mean that he should do the work,
but that he should be merely learning the habits of
the people. Might it not be more desirable to give
the young Civilian in his early days some means
of mixing with the people outside the criminal classes ?
—It would be better that he should come into contact
with the better class of people.
18158. You speak of reducing transfers and following
the same system as in the Judicial Service ; what is
that system?—In the Judicial Service no transfer is
made in less than three years.
18159. Is that rule generally observed amongst
District Munsiffs and Subordinate Judges?—They are
as a rule posted to a place for three years.
18160. You speak of a District Magistrate’s power
of interference with a municipal budget, but has he
any independent power ; does not the budget go to
the Commissioner for his approval ?—Yes, but the
Magistrate practically decides it.
18161. Do you mean that he remarks upon it ?—
Yes, and the Commissioner generally follows them.
18162. But as District Magistrate can he do any-
thing beyond report to the Commissioner ?—That
is so.
18163. You spoke of municipalities not being able
to raise money, but do they not borrow from Govern-
ment habitually ?■—-Yes, and probably it would not be
necessary to invest them with independent powers of
borrowing.
18164. As regards Advisory Councils, what would
happen if the Commissioner and Collector disagreed
with the majority of a Council on any subject ?—
There is a feeling in official circles that in case of a
difference like that it would result in the creation of
an unpleasant situation. In my own experience, and
I have been a member of the Calcutta Municipality
for nearly 12 years, when it was a self-governing
institution and when the people had a clear majority
of one-third, I never found, except in one instance in
which the Europeans led the opposition, that the
members of the opposition who were the representative
members of the Corporation had disagreed from the
Chairman who was an official. I do not think that a
contingency like the one you suggest would be a
matter which would happen usually or frequently.
But even if it did happen in a matter which affected
only the internal administration of the district, such
as making roads and starting schools, or the excavation
of tanks, or the allotment of grants for other
purposes within the district in question affecting
purely local needs and not questions of policy, I do
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155
18141. Do you think more money could be got if
the Local Government borrowed also ?—Yes, and
the Local Government might develop the resources
quicker, having more direct knowledge of the
necessities of local administration.
18142. Are you opposed to any general delegation
Act which in general terms would allow the Govern-
ment of India or the Local Government to delegate
any powers that the law has hitherto vested in them
to some subordinate authority ?—Yes.
18143. You want any delegation to be specifically
carried out by legislation ?—Yes. There are matters
contained in special enactments which might safely be
delegated to Commissioners, but those are matters
which ought to be clearly put before the public or the
Council. A general delegation Act would cover many
matters which I do not think could be safely delegated,
and therefore I am against a general delegation Act.
18144. You said that the Government of India had
no means of receiving information from the people,
but are there not elected non-official members as
advisers to the Legislative Council ?—Yes, there are.
18145. And is it not open to any Association, the
British India Association for instance, to put their
views before the Government of India, and do they
not habitually do so ?—They do so. As regards the
members of the Viceroy’s Council there is in Bengal
only one member for the whole province, and he is in
touch with the Government for a very short period in
the year ; for the greater part of the year he is not
in touch with the Supreme Government at all, and as
regards memorials they seldom produce the effect
which personal intercourse might produce.
18146. With regards to excise and what you thought
to be the tendency of the local officers to act counter
to the instructions of the Government of India, are
you aware that there was an Excise Committee
appointed by the Government of India to inquire
into that very subject amongst other things ?—Yes.
18147. Ought the Central Government to keep
control over the general lines of excise policy in India
in order to guard against that possible danger on the
part of local officers?—Yes. The Government of
Bengal, as at present constituted, and I believe other
Governments also, would follow the general lines of
policy laid down by the Supreme Government, but at
the same time I should prefer some control being
vested in the Supreme Government with regard to it.
18148. It has been suggested occasionally that in all
matters which Local Governments have the manage-
ment of, such as police, excise and education, they
should have generally a free hand and that the
Government of India should not interfere ; is that a
policy which would meet with your approval ?—I do
not agree with that view ; the Government of India
ought to control the policy.
18149. You say that Commissioners and Collectors
should be allowed to spend money, subject to sanction
within a certain limit for each division and district-
what matters have you specially in view ?—Various
matters which arise in the district ; for instance, if
there is an urgent call for relief or any small matters
involving expenditure.
18150. In the matter of Public Works, for instance,
would you like to see larger powers of sanction vested
in the Commissioner ?—Within a certain limit I would
fix an allotment. For instance, the Local Government
might fix so much as intended for a certain district or
division and the Commissioner might be allowed some
latitude as regards the way in which it was spent.
18151. That is to say you would break up the
provincial budget to a certain extent and give the
Commissioner powers of sanction within a smaller
budget ?—Yes.
18152. You have said that the young European
officer is less sympathetic than the older man ; would
that not possibly be due to the fact that occasionally
when he is young he finds that persons impose upon
him a little and make use of his friendship for their
own private purposes ?—I am not; aware that that is
done as a rule and that his sympathetic attitude
towards any particular class of individual is abused.
18153. Do you not know of any case in which an
Indian has made use of his alleged friendship with a
District Officer to get more things done for himself or
to spread abroad an impression that he was in close
touch with the Joint-Magistrate, for instance?—The
influence of a younger officer could not be utilised if it
were attempted to be for that purpose to the same
extent as the influence, for instance, of a Commissioner.
A District Officer after all has much smaller oppor-
tunities of things of that kind than the Commis-
sioner, and I do not apprehend that that is one of the
causes which keeps the District Officer to some extent
apart from the people.
Babu
Bhupendra-
nath Bam.
28 Jan., 1908.
18154. At any rate, as he gets older he gets more
accessible and perhaps he knows more who are the
useful people to talk to ?—He comes out as a junior
officer and with increasing experience he is able to
judge better, and appreciate better, the people than
when he first comes out. When he comes to know
their ways he makesconcessions for many things which
might have offended him to start with.
18155. At the beginning of his service he starts as a
Magistrate and is brought into contact with perhaps
the worst class of the people ?—Yes.
18156. It has been suggested elsewhere that that
might be remedied by putting the young Civilian, for
the first few months, not to work under a Collector,
but under a Settlement Officer, where he might mix
with the people more freely and have nothing to do
with criminal work : would you think that of any
use ?—It might be of use, but it has the danger that
settlement work is very serious work which requires
experience. From the point of view you put it to me
it might to some extent serve the purpose, but it
might on the other hand prove injurious to the people
whose interests would be placed in the hands of the
Settlement Officer.
18157. I do not mean that he should do the work,
but that he should be merely learning the habits of
the people. Might it not be more desirable to give
the young Civilian in his early days some means
of mixing with the people outside the criminal classes ?
—It would be better that he should come into contact
with the better class of people.
18158. You speak of reducing transfers and following
the same system as in the Judicial Service ; what is
that system?—In the Judicial Service no transfer is
made in less than three years.
18159. Is that rule generally observed amongst
District Munsiffs and Subordinate Judges?—They are
as a rule posted to a place for three years.
18160. You speak of a District Magistrate’s power
of interference with a municipal budget, but has he
any independent power ; does not the budget go to
the Commissioner for his approval ?—Yes, but the
Magistrate practically decides it.
18161. Do you mean that he remarks upon it ?—
Yes, and the Commissioner generally follows them.
18162. But as District Magistrate can he do any-
thing beyond report to the Commissioner ?—That
is so.
18163. You spoke of municipalities not being able
to raise money, but do they not borrow from Govern-
ment habitually ?■—-Yes, and probably it would not be
necessary to invest them with independent powers of
borrowing.
18164. As regards Advisory Councils, what would
happen if the Commissioner and Collector disagreed
with the majority of a Council on any subject ?—
There is a feeling in official circles that in case of a
difference like that it would result in the creation of
an unpleasant situation. In my own experience, and
I have been a member of the Calcutta Municipality
for nearly 12 years, when it was a self-governing
institution and when the people had a clear majority
of one-third, I never found, except in one instance in
which the Europeans led the opposition, that the
members of the opposition who were the representative
members of the Corporation had disagreed from the
Chairman who was an official. I do not think that a
contingency like the one you suggest would be a
matter which would happen usually or frequently.
But even if it did happen in a matter which affected
only the internal administration of the district, such
as making roads and starting schools, or the excavation
of tanks, or the allotment of grants for other
purposes within the district in question affecting
purely local needs and not questions of policy, I do
33263
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