DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0196
190
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Khan ‘
Bahadur
Maulvi
Sarfaraz
Hosein Khan.
31 Jan., 1908.
19056. Is the Chairman of the Patna municipality
appointed or elected ?—He is appointed. The present
practice in Bengal varies.
19057. In a large municipality like Patna might the
municipality elect its own Chairman?—Not for the
present; given the education of the people the Chair-
man should be elected, but Patna city is at present not
so advanced as to get on without control.
19058. Is the Vice-Chairman elected?—Yes, I was
elected.
19059. What are your duties as Vice-Chairman?—
To prepare the budget in consultation with the
Chairman. Under the Municipal Act all the executive
powers are vested in the Chairman, and the Vice-
Chairman has no original powers; the Chairman
delegates his powers to the Vice-Chairman. The
budget is first submitted to the Finance Committee ; it
is passed, and then it goes to the General Meeting.
19060. How long before the General Meeting do the
members of the municipality see the budget ?—Copies
of the budget are circulated along with the notice for
the meeting ; it has previously been examined by the
Finance Committee ; after that it is put up before the
General Meeting and finally sanctioned. ,
19061. Is there much discussion on the budget?—
No, because the people are not very advanced ; they do
not take much interest.
19062. You have other committees ?—Yes, a Sanitary
Committee, and so on ; the Committee work is
generally done by the Vice-Chairman. He acts as
Chairman of the various sub-committees.
19063. Is that a good system ?—Yes ; I do not think
it is necessary to have different Chairmen for these
sub-committees because there is a danger of friction
between the different Chairmen.
19064. Where does the income of the municipality
come from ?—Tax on holdings, animals, vehicles,
ferries, pounds, and so on.
19065. Does Government contribute to the munici-
pality ?—Only in the case of plague.
19066. In the matter of education ?—No. When we
ask for a grant the Government nearly always give us
it; for instance, on the last occasion there was a
deficit of Rs. 22,000 and we asked Government for a
contribution, and Rs. 17,000 was granted to us.
19067, Do you raise your own loans ?—No ; we
have borrowed from Government on two or three
occasions.
19068. Does that system work well ?—Yes.
19069. You say that the functions of the munici-
palities might be suitably extended ; in what direction ?
—-In the financial direction ; I think the municipality
should have more control over its finances. In primary
education the Government asks us to contribute so
much. In just the same way the Government asks us
to contribute so much to hospitals and so on, on which
account we have freedom of action in controlling our
finances. With reference to the lighting of streets and
so forth, we have, however, a freedom of action.
19070. Does Government lay down that upon light-
ing and education you must spend so much ?—On
education, but not on lighting.
19071. Does it leave you free to spend that as you
like?—Not on education.
19072. What you want is not only freedom as to
detail but as to the whole expenditure ?—Yes ; in
Patna we have to pay Rs. 12,000 towards dispensaries
and Rs. 3,000 go to primary education. We had only
left some Rs. 20,000 for roads. We could not do any-
thing with Rs. 20,000, and the first duty of the
municipality is to have the lighting properly done and
the drains properly cleaned.
19073. Did Government order you to spend so much
on sanitation ?—Upon dispensaries ; it did not say
anything about sanitation.
19074. Is it within your power to raise a greater
amount of revenue ?—The municipality has only the
power of enhancing taxation, but on account of the
condition of the people we cannot do it.
19075. Would it have made you unpopular to raise
greater taxes ?—Yes.
19076. Did you want to spend less upon education
in order that you might spend more on roads ?—Roads
must be the first consideration.
19077. Who controls the primary schools in Patna ?
—The District Magistrate.
19078. Has the municipality nothing to do with
them ?—It makes a grant of Rs. 3,000 to the inspector
of schools ; that is all. That is spent upon the pay of
teachers and scholarships, and so on.
19079. Is there a committee of the municipality
which goes round the schools ?—No ; I go round at
times when I have time—very seldom. My chief point
is this : the roads, drains, and lighting, and all things
connected with local sanitation, should be the first
consideration.
19080. You have nothing to do with the middle
schools or secondary schools?—No.
19081. With regard to education, is more power
wanted by municipalities?—No.
19082. When you say that their functions should be
extended, is it in order that you might be able to spend
your money as you like ?—Yes.
19083. Have you any knowledge of the interior of
the district ?—Not much. I sometimes go and see the
place where I have property, but beyond that I have
not much knowledge of the mufassal.
19084. You tell us that there might be an Adminis-
trative Council to assist the District Officer ; have you
ever seen the work of a District Officer ?—Especially
in matters of sanitation I wish that the people should
have more voice.
19085. You are speaking not so much of the work
of a District Officer as the general principles which
you think ought to be applied ?—Quite so.
19086. (Sir Frederic Lely.') Why do you say that
the Commissioner ought to have more authority in
matters connected with excise ?—Because I do not find
him having any voice in the matter. I think he should
have a voice.
19087. Are you aware of any particular injury which
has been caused to the people, or to the Government,
by his not having sufficient voice ?—I cannot say that
I am.
19088. You say that the municipality should have
an elected Chairman ; would you give Government any
power of approval of the appointment of the Chair-
man?—Not necessarily.
19089. Do you make that statement with reserva-
tions ?—Yes. In some cases I think that Government
should retain the power of approval.
19090. Should the budget be sent up for the sanction
of Government ?—I do not think so.
19091. Suppose the municipality wished to undertake
some large work costing Rs. 50,000, or a lakh of rupees,
should Government exercise any control in that matter
or should it be left entirely to the discretion of the
municipality ?—It greatly depends on the character of
the municipality.
19092. I am speaking of the best class of municipali-
ties ; are there municipalities which might be trusted
with that discretion ?—If the people are well advanced.
I cannot say that there are any such.
19093. Your municipality of Patna is an average
municipality ; would you give a municipality like Patna
the power to grant pensions ?—No.
19094. Would you give them power to levy a new
tax without the sanction of Government ?—No.
19095. Would you have the members of the muni-
cipality entirely elected?—Speaking from my experience
of Patna, I would not.
19096. Supposing the municipality neglected its duty
or committed any serious default, would you give
Government power to intervene and suspend it, or to
order it to do its duty ?—Yes.
19097. Then, generally, you think that very sub-
stantial control should still be exercised by Government
even in the better class of municipalities ?—At present
I have already said that, theoretically, they should be
as free as possible.
19098. But with a view to the further education of
the people, is any further extension of the powers,
of the municipality possible now ?—Yes.
19099. You do not wish to add to what you have
said already ?—No. For instance, in the Act it says
that the Chairman is to have all the powers unless he
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Khan ‘
Bahadur
Maulvi
Sarfaraz
Hosein Khan.
31 Jan., 1908.
19056. Is the Chairman of the Patna municipality
appointed or elected ?—He is appointed. The present
practice in Bengal varies.
19057. In a large municipality like Patna might the
municipality elect its own Chairman?—Not for the
present; given the education of the people the Chair-
man should be elected, but Patna city is at present not
so advanced as to get on without control.
19058. Is the Vice-Chairman elected?—Yes, I was
elected.
19059. What are your duties as Vice-Chairman?—
To prepare the budget in consultation with the
Chairman. Under the Municipal Act all the executive
powers are vested in the Chairman, and the Vice-
Chairman has no original powers; the Chairman
delegates his powers to the Vice-Chairman. The
budget is first submitted to the Finance Committee ; it
is passed, and then it goes to the General Meeting.
19060. How long before the General Meeting do the
members of the municipality see the budget ?—Copies
of the budget are circulated along with the notice for
the meeting ; it has previously been examined by the
Finance Committee ; after that it is put up before the
General Meeting and finally sanctioned. ,
19061. Is there much discussion on the budget?—
No, because the people are not very advanced ; they do
not take much interest.
19062. You have other committees ?—Yes, a Sanitary
Committee, and so on ; the Committee work is
generally done by the Vice-Chairman. He acts as
Chairman of the various sub-committees.
19063. Is that a good system ?—Yes ; I do not think
it is necessary to have different Chairmen for these
sub-committees because there is a danger of friction
between the different Chairmen.
19064. Where does the income of the municipality
come from ?—Tax on holdings, animals, vehicles,
ferries, pounds, and so on.
19065. Does Government contribute to the munici-
pality ?—Only in the case of plague.
19066. In the matter of education ?—No. When we
ask for a grant the Government nearly always give us
it; for instance, on the last occasion there was a
deficit of Rs. 22,000 and we asked Government for a
contribution, and Rs. 17,000 was granted to us.
19067, Do you raise your own loans ?—No ; we
have borrowed from Government on two or three
occasions.
19068. Does that system work well ?—Yes.
19069. You say that the functions of the munici-
palities might be suitably extended ; in what direction ?
—-In the financial direction ; I think the municipality
should have more control over its finances. In primary
education the Government asks us to contribute so
much. In just the same way the Government asks us
to contribute so much to hospitals and so on, on which
account we have freedom of action in controlling our
finances. With reference to the lighting of streets and
so forth, we have, however, a freedom of action.
19070. Does Government lay down that upon light-
ing and education you must spend so much ?—On
education, but not on lighting.
19071. Does it leave you free to spend that as you
like?—Not on education.
19072. What you want is not only freedom as to
detail but as to the whole expenditure ?—Yes ; in
Patna we have to pay Rs. 12,000 towards dispensaries
and Rs. 3,000 go to primary education. We had only
left some Rs. 20,000 for roads. We could not do any-
thing with Rs. 20,000, and the first duty of the
municipality is to have the lighting properly done and
the drains properly cleaned.
19073. Did Government order you to spend so much
on sanitation ?—Upon dispensaries ; it did not say
anything about sanitation.
19074. Is it within your power to raise a greater
amount of revenue ?—The municipality has only the
power of enhancing taxation, but on account of the
condition of the people we cannot do it.
19075. Would it have made you unpopular to raise
greater taxes ?—Yes.
19076. Did you want to spend less upon education
in order that you might spend more on roads ?—Roads
must be the first consideration.
19077. Who controls the primary schools in Patna ?
—The District Magistrate.
19078. Has the municipality nothing to do with
them ?—It makes a grant of Rs. 3,000 to the inspector
of schools ; that is all. That is spent upon the pay of
teachers and scholarships, and so on.
19079. Is there a committee of the municipality
which goes round the schools ?—No ; I go round at
times when I have time—very seldom. My chief point
is this : the roads, drains, and lighting, and all things
connected with local sanitation, should be the first
consideration.
19080. You have nothing to do with the middle
schools or secondary schools?—No.
19081. With regard to education, is more power
wanted by municipalities?—No.
19082. When you say that their functions should be
extended, is it in order that you might be able to spend
your money as you like ?—Yes.
19083. Have you any knowledge of the interior of
the district ?—Not much. I sometimes go and see the
place where I have property, but beyond that I have
not much knowledge of the mufassal.
19084. You tell us that there might be an Adminis-
trative Council to assist the District Officer ; have you
ever seen the work of a District Officer ?—Especially
in matters of sanitation I wish that the people should
have more voice.
19085. You are speaking not so much of the work
of a District Officer as the general principles which
you think ought to be applied ?—Quite so.
19086. (Sir Frederic Lely.') Why do you say that
the Commissioner ought to have more authority in
matters connected with excise ?—Because I do not find
him having any voice in the matter. I think he should
have a voice.
19087. Are you aware of any particular injury which
has been caused to the people, or to the Government,
by his not having sufficient voice ?—I cannot say that
I am.
19088. You say that the municipality should have
an elected Chairman ; would you give Government any
power of approval of the appointment of the Chair-
man?—Not necessarily.
19089. Do you make that statement with reserva-
tions ?—Yes. In some cases I think that Government
should retain the power of approval.
19090. Should the budget be sent up for the sanction
of Government ?—I do not think so.
19091. Suppose the municipality wished to undertake
some large work costing Rs. 50,000, or a lakh of rupees,
should Government exercise any control in that matter
or should it be left entirely to the discretion of the
municipality ?—It greatly depends on the character of
the municipality.
19092. I am speaking of the best class of municipali-
ties ; are there municipalities which might be trusted
with that discretion ?—If the people are well advanced.
I cannot say that there are any such.
19093. Your municipality of Patna is an average
municipality ; would you give a municipality like Patna
the power to grant pensions ?—No.
19094. Would you give them power to levy a new
tax without the sanction of Government ?—No.
19095. Would you have the members of the muni-
cipality entirely elected?—Speaking from my experience
of Patna, I would not.
19096. Supposing the municipality neglected its duty
or committed any serious default, would you give
Government power to intervene and suspend it, or to
order it to do its duty ?—Yes.
19097. Then, generally, you think that very sub-
stantial control should still be exercised by Government
even in the better class of municipalities ?—At present
I have already said that, theoretically, they should be
as free as possible.
19098. But with a view to the further education of
the people, is any further extension of the powers,
of the municipality possible now ?—Yes.
19099. You do not wish to add to what you have
said already ?—No. For instance, in the Act it says
that the Chairman is to have all the powers unless he