DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0197
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
191
delegates his powers to the Vice-Chairman. When
Chairmen are nominated, something should be put in
the Act to show that, as a rule, they should delegate
the powers ; it should not entirely depend on their
will.
19100. I understand that the municipality of Patna
has incurred two loans ; what was their amount ?—
The first loan was 3 lakhs ; then there was another
loan of, approximately, Rs. 50,000. We are repaying
them in instalments by a sinking fund ; it will take
some 16 or 18 years to clear the loans off. I do not
remember the total term of the loans. I do not think
it was such as to hamper us.
19101. (Mr. Dutt.) What is the annul income of
your municipality ?—Rs. 1,50,000. After paying all
expenses we have a balance of about Rs. 12,000 left.
19102. Is not Patna the biggest town in Bengal,
next to Calcutta, and much above the average muni-
cipality in income and population ?—Yes.
19103. There is a section in the Act by which a
municipality can impose certain taxes with the sanction
of the Government. Have you imposed all those
taxes in Patna?—No, there have been no additional
taxes.
19104. How many members, besides yourself, have
you got on the Finance Committee ?—I think four ;
they are all non-officials.
19105. Is the main duty of the Finance Committee
to prepare the budget ?—Yes, and estimates of the cost
of drains, culverts, and so on. When an estimate is
made it is put up first before the Finance Committee ;
then it goes to the General Meeting.
19106. What was the purpose of your Ioans of
3 lakhs and Rs. 50,000 ?•—They were for the construction
and flushing of drains. The scheme is not quite com-
plete.
19107. You say that the district Administrative
Council should consist of the Sub-Divisional Officers
and of one representative from each sub-division ; in
that case would it be possible for it to sit and work
regularly at the headquarters of the district ?—There
would be some difficulty.
19108. If you wanted to have a working Council at
the headquarters of a district, you would have to
modify your proposals so that the members could come
once a week or once a month to do the work at head-
quarters ?—That is so.
19109. In Bihar are the chaukidari unions in working
order ?—I have no personal knowledge ; I speak from
general knowledge.
19110. (Mr. Hichens.) When you send your budget
up to the Divisional Commissioner, does he make many
alterations in it ?—Not many.
19111. Can you think of may instances where he has
made alterations which you objected to ?—There was
one with regard to the appointment of Secretary.
That was not an alteration in the budget.
19112. You say that you have got to spend Rs. 3,000
on education ; who puts that into the budget ?—I put
it in as a lump sum. The budget is made by the
school authorities, and comes to me through the
Magistrate ; under the orders of the Government so
much per cent, of the municipal revenues must be
given to education.
19113. Is that in the Act?—I think not ; it is an
executive order; every year the school authorities
submit the budget to me and I put down that sum.
19114. (Mr. Meyer.) What is the procedure as to
the appointment of the municipal ■ servants ?—The
Chairman appoints. Up to Rs. 50 a month the Chair-
man can himself appoint ; beyond that the power is
with the Municipal Commissioners as a body.
19115. Does the power of punishment and dismissal
rest with the body that appoints?—With regard to
appointments and dismissals, within a certain amount
the Chairman has the power ; beyond that Municipal
Commissioners have the power.
19116. If a man on Rs. 30 is to be punished, is the
punishment inflicted by the Chairman or by the
Council collectively?—The Chairman can suspend all
officers.
19117. But the dismissal would rest with the
Council ?—Yes, up to a limit; I cannot give you the
exact amount; I think the Chairman cannot appoint
above Rs. 50, and he cannot dismiss above Rs. 20.
The limits are not the same.
19118. Is the Chairman of the Patna municipality
the Collector ?—Yes.
19119. You say it is desirable to allow Commis-
sioners and Collectors to control to a greater extent
than at present the expenditures in their divisions and
districts by allowing the Commissioners an allotment
by provincial grants by percentage. What do you
mean by that ?—I have no personal knowledge of it,
but from my general knowledge the District Officer
should have a certain amount allotted to him and have
complete freedom with regard to that.
19120. But what do you mean by “ percentage ” ?—
I have not gone into the details.
19121. You mean that the Local Government should
take the provincial revenue raised in a division and
say, “We will take a certain amount of revenue for
headquarters, but the rest shall be left to the Col-
lector to deal with ” ?—Yes.
Khan
Bahadur
Maulvt
Sarfaraz
Hosein Khan.
31 Jan., 1908.
19122. How do you propose that the Commissioners
shall intervene in details of civil justice ?—I do not
propose it. I simply state the facts.
191.23. You say, “ Transfers can be reduced if the
Divisional Commissioners and Collectors were given a
voice in the matter.” Do you mean that the Commis-
sioner should transfer Deputy Collectors within his
division?—He may transfer, or at least have a voice
in the matter.
19124. You have spoken about the pressure put
upon your municipality to devote money to education
and dispensaries, and so forth ; is there any general
rule that a municipality must give a percentage of its
revenue to these matters, or is it what the Divisional
Commissioner thinks appropiate ?—-I am not quite
sure about that; I think there is no general rule. It
is under the orders of the Government, not the orders
of the Commissioner.
19125. I understand your complaint is that you are
made to spend more on dispensaries and schools, and
so on, than you think you should do ; does that arise
from the Commissioner’s alterations of your budget ?
It is not that; under the orders of the Government
we have to spend so much on primary education and
so much on dispensaries ; upon those orders we frame
the budget.
19126. Are those general orders in the Municipal
Act ?—I think they are in the general orders. They
apply not merely to Patna but to every municipality
in the province.
19127. What power have you with regard to the
re-allotment of expenditure from one head to another
within the year ; can you transfer from one major
head to another?—Not without the sanction of the
Commissioner.
19128. Can you transfer between sub-heads with-
in one major head?—I think we have to go to the
Commissioner even then.
19129. Is it necessary that you should go up for that
sanction ?—I think so.
19130. Do you pass many bye-laws?—Not many.
They go to Government.
19131. Might the Commissioner deal with them
finally ?—I think so.
19132. Would you be in favour generally of giving
powers into the hands of the Commissioner with
regard to the normal work of the municipality ?—It
is a question of details ; in some instances I would
give the Commissioner power of control.
19133. Have you had much experience of village
Communities ?—No, I speak from general knowledge.
19134. Would you give greater powers to all village
Communities or only to selected village Communities ?
—Only to selected village Communities.
19135. In your part of the country, are there many
small proprietors holding estates, say, that pay an
assessment to Government individually of less than
Rs. 50 ?—There are many such.
19136. Do they pay their land revenue at the dis-
trict headquarters ?—Yes.
191
delegates his powers to the Vice-Chairman. When
Chairmen are nominated, something should be put in
the Act to show that, as a rule, they should delegate
the powers ; it should not entirely depend on their
will.
19100. I understand that the municipality of Patna
has incurred two loans ; what was their amount ?—
The first loan was 3 lakhs ; then there was another
loan of, approximately, Rs. 50,000. We are repaying
them in instalments by a sinking fund ; it will take
some 16 or 18 years to clear the loans off. I do not
remember the total term of the loans. I do not think
it was such as to hamper us.
19101. (Mr. Dutt.) What is the annul income of
your municipality ?—Rs. 1,50,000. After paying all
expenses we have a balance of about Rs. 12,000 left.
19102. Is not Patna the biggest town in Bengal,
next to Calcutta, and much above the average muni-
cipality in income and population ?—Yes.
19103. There is a section in the Act by which a
municipality can impose certain taxes with the sanction
of the Government. Have you imposed all those
taxes in Patna?—No, there have been no additional
taxes.
19104. How many members, besides yourself, have
you got on the Finance Committee ?—I think four ;
they are all non-officials.
19105. Is the main duty of the Finance Committee
to prepare the budget ?—Yes, and estimates of the cost
of drains, culverts, and so on. When an estimate is
made it is put up first before the Finance Committee ;
then it goes to the General Meeting.
19106. What was the purpose of your Ioans of
3 lakhs and Rs. 50,000 ?•—They were for the construction
and flushing of drains. The scheme is not quite com-
plete.
19107. You say that the district Administrative
Council should consist of the Sub-Divisional Officers
and of one representative from each sub-division ; in
that case would it be possible for it to sit and work
regularly at the headquarters of the district ?—There
would be some difficulty.
19108. If you wanted to have a working Council at
the headquarters of a district, you would have to
modify your proposals so that the members could come
once a week or once a month to do the work at head-
quarters ?—That is so.
19109. In Bihar are the chaukidari unions in working
order ?—I have no personal knowledge ; I speak from
general knowledge.
19110. (Mr. Hichens.) When you send your budget
up to the Divisional Commissioner, does he make many
alterations in it ?—Not many.
19111. Can you think of may instances where he has
made alterations which you objected to ?—There was
one with regard to the appointment of Secretary.
That was not an alteration in the budget.
19112. You say that you have got to spend Rs. 3,000
on education ; who puts that into the budget ?—I put
it in as a lump sum. The budget is made by the
school authorities, and comes to me through the
Magistrate ; under the orders of the Government so
much per cent, of the municipal revenues must be
given to education.
19113. Is that in the Act?—I think not ; it is an
executive order; every year the school authorities
submit the budget to me and I put down that sum.
19114. (Mr. Meyer.) What is the procedure as to
the appointment of the municipal ■ servants ?—The
Chairman appoints. Up to Rs. 50 a month the Chair-
man can himself appoint ; beyond that the power is
with the Municipal Commissioners as a body.
19115. Does the power of punishment and dismissal
rest with the body that appoints?—With regard to
appointments and dismissals, within a certain amount
the Chairman has the power ; beyond that Municipal
Commissioners have the power.
19116. If a man on Rs. 30 is to be punished, is the
punishment inflicted by the Chairman or by the
Council collectively?—The Chairman can suspend all
officers.
19117. But the dismissal would rest with the
Council ?—Yes, up to a limit; I cannot give you the
exact amount; I think the Chairman cannot appoint
above Rs. 50, and he cannot dismiss above Rs. 20.
The limits are not the same.
19118. Is the Chairman of the Patna municipality
the Collector ?—Yes.
19119. You say it is desirable to allow Commis-
sioners and Collectors to control to a greater extent
than at present the expenditures in their divisions and
districts by allowing the Commissioners an allotment
by provincial grants by percentage. What do you
mean by that ?—I have no personal knowledge of it,
but from my general knowledge the District Officer
should have a certain amount allotted to him and have
complete freedom with regard to that.
19120. But what do you mean by “ percentage ” ?—
I have not gone into the details.
19121. You mean that the Local Government should
take the provincial revenue raised in a division and
say, “We will take a certain amount of revenue for
headquarters, but the rest shall be left to the Col-
lector to deal with ” ?—Yes.
Khan
Bahadur
Maulvt
Sarfaraz
Hosein Khan.
31 Jan., 1908.
19122. How do you propose that the Commissioners
shall intervene in details of civil justice ?—I do not
propose it. I simply state the facts.
191.23. You say, “ Transfers can be reduced if the
Divisional Commissioners and Collectors were given a
voice in the matter.” Do you mean that the Commis-
sioner should transfer Deputy Collectors within his
division?—He may transfer, or at least have a voice
in the matter.
19124. You have spoken about the pressure put
upon your municipality to devote money to education
and dispensaries, and so forth ; is there any general
rule that a municipality must give a percentage of its
revenue to these matters, or is it what the Divisional
Commissioner thinks appropiate ?—-I am not quite
sure about that; I think there is no general rule. It
is under the orders of the Government, not the orders
of the Commissioner.
19125. I understand your complaint is that you are
made to spend more on dispensaries and schools, and
so on, than you think you should do ; does that arise
from the Commissioner’s alterations of your budget ?
It is not that; under the orders of the Government
we have to spend so much on primary education and
so much on dispensaries ; upon those orders we frame
the budget.
19126. Are those general orders in the Municipal
Act ?—I think they are in the general orders. They
apply not merely to Patna but to every municipality
in the province.
19127. What power have you with regard to the
re-allotment of expenditure from one head to another
within the year ; can you transfer from one major
head to another?—Not without the sanction of the
Commissioner.
19128. Can you transfer between sub-heads with-
in one major head?—I think we have to go to the
Commissioner even then.
19129. Is it necessary that you should go up for that
sanction ?—I think so.
19130. Do you pass many bye-laws?—Not many.
They go to Government.
19131. Might the Commissioner deal with them
finally ?—I think so.
19132. Would you be in favour generally of giving
powers into the hands of the Commissioner with
regard to the normal work of the municipality ?—It
is a question of details ; in some instances I would
give the Commissioner power of control.
19133. Have you had much experience of village
Communities ?—No, I speak from general knowledge.
19134. Would you give greater powers to all village
Communities or only to selected village Communities ?
—Only to selected village Communities.
19135. In your part of the country, are there many
small proprietors holding estates, say, that pay an
assessment to Government individually of less than
Rs. 50 ?—There are many such.
19136. Do they pay their land revenue at the dis-
trict headquarters ?—Yes.