DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0013
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
7
42562. Do you know anything with regard to
Sanitary Boards ? Are they constituted, generally
speaking, on much the same lines in most of the
provinces?—They have departed entirely from the
■original lines. The beginning of the Sanitary Boards
was a recommendation in the report of Lord Stanley’s
Royal Commission ; that was in 1863. Nothing hap-
pened until about 1887, when Sir A. P. MacDonnell
wrote a resolution by which he recommended that
Sanitary Boards should be appointed in all the pro-
vinces. The Board was to consist of an officer of
approved administrative experience, a Sanitary Com-
missioner, and an Engineer skilled in sanitary science.
Most of the provinces resisted the establishment of
Boards ; Madras, for instance, said that they did not
want a Board ; Bombay said the same ; the Punjab
said the same.
42563. What is the present position ?—Every pro-
vince in India, except Coorg, has a Board.
42564. On the whole is the work of those Boards
well done ?—I think they are exceedingly useful.
42565. Is their work well done ?—It is not entirely
satisfactory, I think, but I cannot tell you why.
42566. Do you think that every Sanitary Board
ought to have something beyond mere advisory powers?
—They have in some places. In the United Provinces
they have executive powers : they got executive powers
in 1896.
42567. Is it a good thing that a Sanitary Board
should have executive powers ?—-I think it is. I
imagine that the work is better done in the United
Provinces than it is elsewhere ; in the Punjab the
Sanitary Boards have certain executive powers, and
they have so much money given to them to spend. It
is a small sum given to them by the Punjab Govern-
ment.
42568. Composed as they are, or as they ought to
be, of experts, would it be a wise thing to allow them
to sanction schemes on their own authority up to a
certain limit ?—The Board I should like to see would
be a. very small Board indeed, no more than three
officers, one of financial knowledge, a Sanitary Com-
missioner, and a Sanitary Engineer ; I would give
them certain executive power to spend small sums, but
their main functions should be advisory.
42569. What powers of sanction should they possess?
—It would depend on the circumstances of different
places. I would give them powers to sanction up to
anything which did not require the interference of the
Local Government—where the Local Government were
not likely to have to foot the bill.
42570. Suppose the Local Government now confine
them to, say, Rs. 5,000, would you like to see it go up
to, say, Rs. 10,000, or so ?—Yes, I think I would ;
I have not any very clear idea.
42571. You suggest that these Sanitary Commis-
sioners or representatives from each Sanitary Board
should meet every year; do you contemplate con-
ferences ?—The Home Department suggest confer-
ences ; I do not think that that is anything like as
useful as allowing a man to go anywhere he likes in
order to see things. Eor instance, the Sanitary Com-
missioner in Bengal might very usefully perhaps go to
Madras to see the King Institute there, or to Belgaum
to see the new Vaccine Institute there. I do not
think that conferences are likely to be often useful, or
anything like so useful as allowing a Sanitary Com-
missioner to visit different places.
42572. You say that it would be a great advantage
if the. initial appointments as provincial Sanitary
Commissioners were made by the Government of
India ; do you propose a scheme of provincial appoint-
ments to be made by the Government of India ?—The
Local Governments get their Civil Surgeons from the
Government of India; they have a cadre of Civil
Surgeons in the province. At present the Deputy
Sanitary Commissioners are simply cadre appointments
in the province ; Smith, Brown or Robinson goes to
the province, and if they have no Civil Surgeoncy for
him they put him in as Deputy Sanitary Commis-
sioner. That is exceedingly unsatisfactory. All over
northern India, when they want an officer for a Deputy
Sanitary Commissionership, they generally write and
say so. The Government of India have not accepted
my proposal that they should appoint Deputy Sanitary
4 Jan., 1908.
the
the
the
Colonel
J. T. IF.
Leslie.
Commissioners, but they have done what amounts to
exactly the same thing. They suggest that no officer
should be appointed Deputy Sanitary Commissioner
who has more than seven years’ service, or who is not
technically qualified for the appointment. I think
they should have added, who is not a candidate for the
appointment. Very often men are made Sanitary
Commissioners against their will, and they are con-
tinually trying to get out of the appointment. That
is unsatisfactory.
42573. You want to level up, as it were, the whole
work done by the Deputy Sanitary Commissioners ?—
Yes.
42574. And for that purpose you would introduce
the agency of the Government of India ?—I think you
must do so.
42575. You would not leave it to the Local Govern-
ments?—No; the Government of India have the
patronage of the Sanitary Commissionerships except in
Madras and Bombay, and, if we had to sacrifice one
or the other, I would rather sacrifice the power of
promotion ; I would rather have power to select my
man than have power to promote him.
42576. Are you responsible for preparing the returns
of vital statistics?—Yes.
42577. Do you attach much importance to them ?—
As far as numbers go they are in most places fairly
correct; as regards the details of the causes of death
they are very far from correct.
42578. How do you know that the numbers of
deaths are correct ?—The census reports give you
figures, and whenever you make a special investigation
you get a figure which is pretty reliable ; it is certainly
not one per cent, out in most cases.
42579. We were told by a witness who had collated
some of these statistics himself that they were not at
all reliable ; would it surprise you to hear that ?—It
depends on what he meant by “ not reliable.” As far
as numbers are concerned, in most provinces the
numbers are correct—the totals are correct, but the
causes of death are all wrong. In some provinces
the vital statistics, are very bad. For instance, you
have a birth rate of 23 in Madras ; that cannot be
right; but take the Punjab, or the United Provinces,
or Bengal, or the Central Provinces, their figures, so
far as the totals are concerned, are very nearly quite
accurate.
42580. How do you check the totals which are
returned ?—The figures are collected by the headman
in each village ; those are sent into the police thana,
and from there they are sent to the Sanitary Commis-
sioner, who tabulates them.
42581. At all events you do not agree with the
suggestion that it is desirable to reduce the frequency
with which these returns are called for?—No, it cannot
be done.
42582. Just as you would have an Imperial Service
of Deputy Sanitary Commissioners, you want an
Imperial Service of Sanitary Engineers ?—Yes.
42583. All to be appointed by the Government of
India?—-No, certainly not. For instance, in many
provinces there are Sanitary Engineers at present, and
there are men who are Assistant Sanitary Engineers.
These men who are taken into the cadre would be
eligible for promotion in their own province or in
another province.
42584. At all events you want something centralized
under the Government of India instead of being local-
ised under the provincial Governments?—! think it
must be so ; the Service is so small.
42585. {Mr. Hichens.) Is research work under the
Government of India, or under the provincial Govern-
ments, or under both ?—Mainly under the Government
of India; so far as it is official, it is under
Government of India.
42586. How far should that be confined to
Government of India ?—You cannot confine it to
Government of India. A man in a certain laboratory
will do research work himself, but the systematizing of
all the various research work must be in the hands of •
the Government of India, if we are to economize our
personnel. If you have half a dozen men working ir.
half a dozen different laboratories on the same subject
you have power wasted ; if you put the same half
dozen men to work on a given subject and to w’ork
7
42562. Do you know anything with regard to
Sanitary Boards ? Are they constituted, generally
speaking, on much the same lines in most of the
provinces?—They have departed entirely from the
■original lines. The beginning of the Sanitary Boards
was a recommendation in the report of Lord Stanley’s
Royal Commission ; that was in 1863. Nothing hap-
pened until about 1887, when Sir A. P. MacDonnell
wrote a resolution by which he recommended that
Sanitary Boards should be appointed in all the pro-
vinces. The Board was to consist of an officer of
approved administrative experience, a Sanitary Com-
missioner, and an Engineer skilled in sanitary science.
Most of the provinces resisted the establishment of
Boards ; Madras, for instance, said that they did not
want a Board ; Bombay said the same ; the Punjab
said the same.
42563. What is the present position ?—Every pro-
vince in India, except Coorg, has a Board.
42564. On the whole is the work of those Boards
well done ?—I think they are exceedingly useful.
42565. Is their work well done ?—It is not entirely
satisfactory, I think, but I cannot tell you why.
42566. Do you think that every Sanitary Board
ought to have something beyond mere advisory powers?
—They have in some places. In the United Provinces
they have executive powers : they got executive powers
in 1896.
42567. Is it a good thing that a Sanitary Board
should have executive powers ?—-I think it is. I
imagine that the work is better done in the United
Provinces than it is elsewhere ; in the Punjab the
Sanitary Boards have certain executive powers, and
they have so much money given to them to spend. It
is a small sum given to them by the Punjab Govern-
ment.
42568. Composed as they are, or as they ought to
be, of experts, would it be a wise thing to allow them
to sanction schemes on their own authority up to a
certain limit ?—The Board I should like to see would
be a. very small Board indeed, no more than three
officers, one of financial knowledge, a Sanitary Com-
missioner, and a Sanitary Engineer ; I would give
them certain executive power to spend small sums, but
their main functions should be advisory.
42569. What powers of sanction should they possess?
—It would depend on the circumstances of different
places. I would give them powers to sanction up to
anything which did not require the interference of the
Local Government—where the Local Government were
not likely to have to foot the bill.
42570. Suppose the Local Government now confine
them to, say, Rs. 5,000, would you like to see it go up
to, say, Rs. 10,000, or so ?—Yes, I think I would ;
I have not any very clear idea.
42571. You suggest that these Sanitary Commis-
sioners or representatives from each Sanitary Board
should meet every year; do you contemplate con-
ferences ?—The Home Department suggest confer-
ences ; I do not think that that is anything like as
useful as allowing a man to go anywhere he likes in
order to see things. Eor instance, the Sanitary Com-
missioner in Bengal might very usefully perhaps go to
Madras to see the King Institute there, or to Belgaum
to see the new Vaccine Institute there. I do not
think that conferences are likely to be often useful, or
anything like so useful as allowing a Sanitary Com-
missioner to visit different places.
42572. You say that it would be a great advantage
if the. initial appointments as provincial Sanitary
Commissioners were made by the Government of
India ; do you propose a scheme of provincial appoint-
ments to be made by the Government of India ?—The
Local Governments get their Civil Surgeons from the
Government of India; they have a cadre of Civil
Surgeons in the province. At present the Deputy
Sanitary Commissioners are simply cadre appointments
in the province ; Smith, Brown or Robinson goes to
the province, and if they have no Civil Surgeoncy for
him they put him in as Deputy Sanitary Commis-
sioner. That is exceedingly unsatisfactory. All over
northern India, when they want an officer for a Deputy
Sanitary Commissionership, they generally write and
say so. The Government of India have not accepted
my proposal that they should appoint Deputy Sanitary
4 Jan., 1908.
the
the
the
Colonel
J. T. IF.
Leslie.
Commissioners, but they have done what amounts to
exactly the same thing. They suggest that no officer
should be appointed Deputy Sanitary Commissioner
who has more than seven years’ service, or who is not
technically qualified for the appointment. I think
they should have added, who is not a candidate for the
appointment. Very often men are made Sanitary
Commissioners against their will, and they are con-
tinually trying to get out of the appointment. That
is unsatisfactory.
42573. You want to level up, as it were, the whole
work done by the Deputy Sanitary Commissioners ?—
Yes.
42574. And for that purpose you would introduce
the agency of the Government of India ?—I think you
must do so.
42575. You would not leave it to the Local Govern-
ments?—No; the Government of India have the
patronage of the Sanitary Commissionerships except in
Madras and Bombay, and, if we had to sacrifice one
or the other, I would rather sacrifice the power of
promotion ; I would rather have power to select my
man than have power to promote him.
42576. Are you responsible for preparing the returns
of vital statistics?—Yes.
42577. Do you attach much importance to them ?—
As far as numbers go they are in most places fairly
correct; as regards the details of the causes of death
they are very far from correct.
42578. How do you know that the numbers of
deaths are correct ?—The census reports give you
figures, and whenever you make a special investigation
you get a figure which is pretty reliable ; it is certainly
not one per cent, out in most cases.
42579. We were told by a witness who had collated
some of these statistics himself that they were not at
all reliable ; would it surprise you to hear that ?—It
depends on what he meant by “ not reliable.” As far
as numbers are concerned, in most provinces the
numbers are correct—the totals are correct, but the
causes of death are all wrong. In some provinces
the vital statistics, are very bad. For instance, you
have a birth rate of 23 in Madras ; that cannot be
right; but take the Punjab, or the United Provinces,
or Bengal, or the Central Provinces, their figures, so
far as the totals are concerned, are very nearly quite
accurate.
42580. How do you check the totals which are
returned ?—The figures are collected by the headman
in each village ; those are sent into the police thana,
and from there they are sent to the Sanitary Commis-
sioner, who tabulates them.
42581. At all events you do not agree with the
suggestion that it is desirable to reduce the frequency
with which these returns are called for?—No, it cannot
be done.
42582. Just as you would have an Imperial Service
of Deputy Sanitary Commissioners, you want an
Imperial Service of Sanitary Engineers ?—Yes.
42583. All to be appointed by the Government of
India?—-No, certainly not. For instance, in many
provinces there are Sanitary Engineers at present, and
there are men who are Assistant Sanitary Engineers.
These men who are taken into the cadre would be
eligible for promotion in their own province or in
another province.
42584. At all events you want something centralized
under the Government of India instead of being local-
ised under the provincial Governments?—! think it
must be so ; the Service is so small.
42585. {Mr. Hichens.) Is research work under the
Government of India, or under the provincial Govern-
ments, or under both ?—Mainly under the Government
of India; so far as it is official, it is under
Government of India.
42586. How far should that be confined to
Government of India ?—You cannot confine it to
Government of India. A man in a certain laboratory
will do research work himself, but the systematizing of
all the various research work must be in the hands of •
the Government of India, if we are to economize our
personnel. If you have half a dozen men working ir.
half a dozen different laboratories on the same subject
you have power wasted ; if you put the same half
dozen men to work on a given subject and to w’ork