DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0014
8
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Colonel
J. T. W.
Leslie.
4 Jan., 1908.
together, you will obtain good results ; the odds are
that if they are working separately you get nothing
except controversy.
42587. Is it desirable that the provincial Govern-
ments should spend public money on research work at
the same time that the Government of India are
spending money on the same work ?—The more money
well spent on research work the better I am pleased.
42588. You would not leave it to the Government
of India to take up that side of the question ?—I think
the Government of India should control it, certainly.
42589. That is practically what happens to-day?—■
That is what happens so far as the work is official.
We exercise no control over the individual in his
laboratory, of course.
42590. In other words, as far as research work goes,
you are satisfied with the existing conditions ?—Yes.
42591. Speaking from the point of view of your
department what should be the relations between the
Government of India and the provincial Governments
in regard to sanitary matters ? Would you say, for
example, that it was the function of the Government
of India to deal with principles and the function of
the provincial Governments to attend to details ?—
The provincial Government must deal with details, the
Government of India cannot do it.
42592. The Government of India should deal with
matters of general principle ?—I think so.
42593. As regards your proposals for the reorganiza-
tion of the Sanitary Department, is it desirable that
the Government of India should apprise the Local
Governments of their nature, but leave it entirely to
their discretion whether they give effect to any of your
suggestions or not ?—What the Government of India
has done is to bring these matters to the notice of the
Local Governments, and ask them to express their
opinions upon them ; they then will collect the opinions
of the different provincial Governments and frame a
resolution upon them.
42594. But suppose any individual Government
says, for example, that they do not think your
suggestion to create an Imperial Service of Sanitary
Engineers is a good one ; would you press that on the
individual Local Government ?—That is extremely
likely to happen. For instance, the Public Works
Department of the Government of India think that
this should be an Imperial Service and should be
recruited in England. One Local Government, I know,
thinks it should be taken entirely from the Public
Works Department. If the majority said that it
should be an Imperial Service, the Government of
India would, no doubt, refer the matter back to the
Local Governments that dissented, and say “ These are
the views of the majority of the Local Governments,
perhaps you will re-consider your position.” I do not
think that any actual compulsion should be put upon
any Local Government if it chooses to hold out.
42595. In other words, the Government of India
should use advice and explanation in a matter of that
sort, not coercion ?—Certainly not coercion ; they will
not use coercion.
42596. You apply that also to your other recommen-
dations ?—Yes, certainly.
42597. (Mr. Dutt.) Is your direct correspondence
with the provincial Sanitary Commissioners mainly of
the nature of calls for information ?—Yes ; practically
the correspondence is entirely confined to requests for
information.
42598. On receipt of the information, when you
submit your report to the Home Department, does
that Department sometimes send out instructions or
advice to the Local Government?—They may say that
the Government of India are advised that such and
such is the case, and ask the Local Government if it is
so ; or they may accept it and say, do the Local Govern-
ment think that such and such a thing might be
amended ; but that in practice does not happen.
42599. Generally, it is only a matter of advice or
suggestion ?—That is all.
42600 Suppose it tcame to your knowledge that
malaria or some other epidemic disease had broken out
in a district where the same disease had not occurred
before, would you -make any enquiries, or call for
information from the provincial Sanitary Commis-
sioner?—Certainly, and I would offer the provincial
Sanitary Commissioner help to investigate it; we have
an Institute for that very purpose.
42601. If you were touring in that province at the
time, you would probably consult him personally in
regard to those matters ?—Certainly.
42602. Then your report on the subject would be
submitted to the Home Department ?—-Yes.
42603. Have you had any occasion to make such
enquiries as regards the outbreak of plague in new
places ?—-Not exactly in the sense you mean.
42604. Nor with regard to the outbreak of malaria
in districts in Bengal ?—Yes, as to malaria. Take the
black-water fever enquiry; we have been making
private enquiries for some time. Recently the Planters
Association in the Duars asked the Government of
India to make an enquiry ; they asked that the Liver-
pool School should send out somebody to enquire.
Most of the new work in the investigation of malaria
has actually been done in India. I therefore suggested
to the Government of India that they should appoint
a committee, and that we should employ experts of
our own ; the committee was appointed and the experts
are now at work in the Duars.
42605. Is black-water fever the same as Icala azar ?
—No. A certain clue to the causation of Icala azar
was obtained ; I suggested to the Government of India
that we should pursue that clue ; they assented and
provided the money, and I had an officer appointed
and set him to work at it, and I think we have made
some little progress with it.
42606. Have these enquiries resulted in any definite
suggestions of any kind ?—-Certain of them have.
The preliminary phase of the black-water fever enquiry
has only just concluded ; as to the kata azar enquiry
we have got it to a certain point, and we cannot get
any further at present ; these things take some time.
42607. But so far as they have gone have you been
able to issue any suggestion?—Yes, in regard to
typhoid ; we have, I think, got at the cause of the
spread of typhoid among European troops.
42608. Are such suggestions communicated to the
Local Governments ?—Typhoid is mainly a concern of
the army. The result of our inquiry has been com-
municated to the Principal Medical Officer, and we
shall publish a report upon it which will be issued to
the public under the authority of the Home Depart-
ment.
42609. I am speaking not of the Army but generally.
—It is a little difficult to explain. Take plague ; we
had a special inquiry into plague ; they took a good
deal of time investigating, and the result will be
circulated to all the Local Governments so that they
may frame their administrative measures upon what
has been ascertained.
42610. (Sir Frederic Ldy.) Is it not more or less
true that the appointments of Deputy Sanitary Com-
missioners are rather unpopular because their functions
are only advisory, and men like to have powers ?—
Yes, they are unpopular.
42611. There is a feeling that they are ploughing
the sand ?—That is an expression that I have heard
used.
42612. In your letter to the Government of India
you mention that the Civil Surgeon should be the
Medical Officer of Health, and should always be
Chairman of the Sanitary Sub-Committee of the
Municipality ? A professional witness we had yester-
day said that he rather objected to a Civil Surgeon
taking up that role, on the ground that he thereby got
mixed up in local disputes and became unpopular ?—It
is only in small places that I suggest that ; it is only
where there is no special Health Officer.
42613. But the objection would apply equally in
small places, or even more so ?—You may put it the
other way ; you may say that he puts himself in a
position to acquire more influence.
42614. Then you would not attach much importance
to that opinion ?—I would attach none.
42615. You also say that the Medical Officer of
Health in the municipality should be under the admin-
istrative control of the Sanitary Commissioner ; that
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Colonel
J. T. W.
Leslie.
4 Jan., 1908.
together, you will obtain good results ; the odds are
that if they are working separately you get nothing
except controversy.
42587. Is it desirable that the provincial Govern-
ments should spend public money on research work at
the same time that the Government of India are
spending money on the same work ?—The more money
well spent on research work the better I am pleased.
42588. You would not leave it to the Government
of India to take up that side of the question ?—I think
the Government of India should control it, certainly.
42589. That is practically what happens to-day?—■
That is what happens so far as the work is official.
We exercise no control over the individual in his
laboratory, of course.
42590. In other words, as far as research work goes,
you are satisfied with the existing conditions ?—Yes.
42591. Speaking from the point of view of your
department what should be the relations between the
Government of India and the provincial Governments
in regard to sanitary matters ? Would you say, for
example, that it was the function of the Government
of India to deal with principles and the function of
the provincial Governments to attend to details ?—
The provincial Government must deal with details, the
Government of India cannot do it.
42592. The Government of India should deal with
matters of general principle ?—I think so.
42593. As regards your proposals for the reorganiza-
tion of the Sanitary Department, is it desirable that
the Government of India should apprise the Local
Governments of their nature, but leave it entirely to
their discretion whether they give effect to any of your
suggestions or not ?—What the Government of India
has done is to bring these matters to the notice of the
Local Governments, and ask them to express their
opinions upon them ; they then will collect the opinions
of the different provincial Governments and frame a
resolution upon them.
42594. But suppose any individual Government
says, for example, that they do not think your
suggestion to create an Imperial Service of Sanitary
Engineers is a good one ; would you press that on the
individual Local Government ?—That is extremely
likely to happen. For instance, the Public Works
Department of the Government of India think that
this should be an Imperial Service and should be
recruited in England. One Local Government, I know,
thinks it should be taken entirely from the Public
Works Department. If the majority said that it
should be an Imperial Service, the Government of
India would, no doubt, refer the matter back to the
Local Governments that dissented, and say “ These are
the views of the majority of the Local Governments,
perhaps you will re-consider your position.” I do not
think that any actual compulsion should be put upon
any Local Government if it chooses to hold out.
42595. In other words, the Government of India
should use advice and explanation in a matter of that
sort, not coercion ?—Certainly not coercion ; they will
not use coercion.
42596. You apply that also to your other recommen-
dations ?—Yes, certainly.
42597. (Mr. Dutt.) Is your direct correspondence
with the provincial Sanitary Commissioners mainly of
the nature of calls for information ?—Yes ; practically
the correspondence is entirely confined to requests for
information.
42598. On receipt of the information, when you
submit your report to the Home Department, does
that Department sometimes send out instructions or
advice to the Local Government?—They may say that
the Government of India are advised that such and
such is the case, and ask the Local Government if it is
so ; or they may accept it and say, do the Local Govern-
ment think that such and such a thing might be
amended ; but that in practice does not happen.
42599. Generally, it is only a matter of advice or
suggestion ?—That is all.
42600 Suppose it tcame to your knowledge that
malaria or some other epidemic disease had broken out
in a district where the same disease had not occurred
before, would you -make any enquiries, or call for
information from the provincial Sanitary Commis-
sioner?—Certainly, and I would offer the provincial
Sanitary Commissioner help to investigate it; we have
an Institute for that very purpose.
42601. If you were touring in that province at the
time, you would probably consult him personally in
regard to those matters ?—Certainly.
42602. Then your report on the subject would be
submitted to the Home Department ?—-Yes.
42603. Have you had any occasion to make such
enquiries as regards the outbreak of plague in new
places ?—-Not exactly in the sense you mean.
42604. Nor with regard to the outbreak of malaria
in districts in Bengal ?—Yes, as to malaria. Take the
black-water fever enquiry; we have been making
private enquiries for some time. Recently the Planters
Association in the Duars asked the Government of
India to make an enquiry ; they asked that the Liver-
pool School should send out somebody to enquire.
Most of the new work in the investigation of malaria
has actually been done in India. I therefore suggested
to the Government of India that they should appoint
a committee, and that we should employ experts of
our own ; the committee was appointed and the experts
are now at work in the Duars.
42605. Is black-water fever the same as Icala azar ?
—No. A certain clue to the causation of Icala azar
was obtained ; I suggested to the Government of India
that we should pursue that clue ; they assented and
provided the money, and I had an officer appointed
and set him to work at it, and I think we have made
some little progress with it.
42606. Have these enquiries resulted in any definite
suggestions of any kind ?—-Certain of them have.
The preliminary phase of the black-water fever enquiry
has only just concluded ; as to the kata azar enquiry
we have got it to a certain point, and we cannot get
any further at present ; these things take some time.
42607. But so far as they have gone have you been
able to issue any suggestion?—Yes, in regard to
typhoid ; we have, I think, got at the cause of the
spread of typhoid among European troops.
42608. Are such suggestions communicated to the
Local Governments ?—Typhoid is mainly a concern of
the army. The result of our inquiry has been com-
municated to the Principal Medical Officer, and we
shall publish a report upon it which will be issued to
the public under the authority of the Home Depart-
ment.
42609. I am speaking not of the Army but generally.
—It is a little difficult to explain. Take plague ; we
had a special inquiry into plague ; they took a good
deal of time investigating, and the result will be
circulated to all the Local Governments so that they
may frame their administrative measures upon what
has been ascertained.
42610. (Sir Frederic Ldy.) Is it not more or less
true that the appointments of Deputy Sanitary Com-
missioners are rather unpopular because their functions
are only advisory, and men like to have powers ?—
Yes, they are unpopular.
42611. There is a feeling that they are ploughing
the sand ?—That is an expression that I have heard
used.
42612. In your letter to the Government of India
you mention that the Civil Surgeon should be the
Medical Officer of Health, and should always be
Chairman of the Sanitary Sub-Committee of the
Municipality ? A professional witness we had yester-
day said that he rather objected to a Civil Surgeon
taking up that role, on the ground that he thereby got
mixed up in local disputes and became unpopular ?—It
is only in small places that I suggest that ; it is only
where there is no special Health Officer.
42613. But the objection would apply equally in
small places, or even more so ?—You may put it the
other way ; you may say that he puts himself in a
position to acquire more influence.
42614. Then you would not attach much importance
to that opinion ?—I would attach none.
42615. You also say that the Medical Officer of
Health in the municipality should be under the admin-
istrative control of the Sanitary Commissioner ; that