ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
59
43684. Apart from those, the Accountant-General
would have to accept the decision of the Local
Government whether ha thought it a wise one or not ?
—Absolutely.
43685. You have been Accountant-General in Bom-
bay, and what other places ?—The United Provinces
and Bengal.
43686. Was there any difference in your position in
Bombay compared with your position in the other
provinces?—Perhaps a little. The Bombay Govern-
ment make more use of their Accountant-General than
the Bengal Government does. They refer to him
more for financial advice.
43687. They let him take, in fact, part of the work
of the local Financial Secretary ?—There is no doubt
that the Accountant-General in Bombay bears the
same relation to the Bombay Government as the
Comptroller-General does to the Government of India.
All technical questions are referred to him, and he is
made great use of as an assistant to the Financial
Secretary ; whereas in Bengal he is very rarely
referred to.
Mr. 0. T.
Barrow.
3 Feb., 1908.
how far the proposed system is to be restricted. I do
not understand the proposal very clearly. If that is
so, it would cause considerable inconvenience. There
are certain times when you cannot help allowing your
officers leave. At present you have got your Civil
Service recruitment based upon principles which you
are aware of, and those principles in themselves are
rather doubtful; that is to say, you limit the number
of your officers, and perhaps in a direction which is
not quite justifiable.
43690. We have it from one witness that he dislikes
the present recruitment system under which everything
is based on the number of superior appointments ;
every superior appointment practically carries another
inferior appointment with it ?—-I was referring to
that. You limit the number of appointments which
you can make in the Civil Service by the number of
your superior appointments. It is done with the
purpose of allowing every officer to get sufficient
promotion ; but it must have a bad effect if it starves
your administration in the lower ranks. I do not
know that it does it; some provinces complain that it
does.
43688. Does the Bombay system tend to sap the
independence of the Accountant-General?—I should
not think so.
43689. As regards the question raised about a self-
contained cadre, might that not also bring difficulties
with it? You require 30'Deputy Commissioners : the
Local Government is provided with (say) 36 to meet
leave vacancies and so forth, this would also logically
involve the principle that they would have to do with
the 36 ; that they could not appoint more ?—At
present, out of the 30 they might have 10 away, and
they could put in 10 senior Assistants to fill their
places ; under the proposed system, they could not
have more than six away at one time ?—I do not know
43691. Personally, would you be in favour of doing
away with that regular rule, and allowing, as in former
times, recruitment to be based upon the number of
actual appointments made ?—The rule is a perfectly
sound and a very scientific one, and it prevents blocks
of promotion. There is no other way of preventing
them ; you would have the old difficulties if you once
departed from the rule.
43692. The new rule has its inconveniences, but it
was brought in to obviate still more serious incon-
veniencies ?—I quite agree.
(ZTie witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
SIXTY-THIRD DAY.
Simla, Friday, the Zrd April, 1908.
present :
C. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
W. L. Hichens, Esq.
Sir Frederic Lely, K.C.I.E., C.S.I.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S.
R. C. Dutt, Esq., C.I.E.
Mr. B. Robertson, C.I.E., I.C.S., was called and examined.
43693. (Chairman.) You are, Secretary in the
Commerce and Industry Department?—Yes, I have
just joined the appointment; I was acting last
year. I file a memorandum* showing the consti-
tution of the department.
43694. Your appointment has now been con-
firmed?—I have been temporarily appointed again ;
I am still acting.
43695. You say that the department is under
the charge of the Hon’ble Member ; is there any
difference between the constitution of the Depart-
ment of Commerce and Industry and that of the
Home Department ?—There is not, so far as I
know ; I think there is none.
43696. The Secretary in the Home Department
describes that department as under the special care
of an ordinary Member of Council, but states that
the Secretary is at the Head of the Department;
you rather seem to say that the Commerce and
Industry Department is under the charge of the
Hon’ble Member of Council ; there is no real dis-
tinction?—There is no real distinction.
43697. The Member of Council is responsible for
all that is done in the department?—Responsible
to the Government of India.
* Vide Appendix la.
33383
Mr. B.
Robertson.
3 Apr., 1908.
43698. The Secretary is merely the Head of the
office, as it were?—Yes.
43699. You do business with regard to the various
matters mentioned throughout British India and
in all Native States too?—We advise the Foreign
Department of the Government of India on matters
which arise under these heads in Native States.
We are merely the advisers of the Foreign Depart-
ment on matters falling within these heads about
which we are consulted.
43700. Do you correspond direct with these
Native States?—No, we have no direct correspond-
ence.
43701. It all goes to the Foreign Department?—
Yes.
43702. Are port dues and pilotage charges uni-
form throughout India?—No, they are not uniform.
43703. Are they left to the discretion of the
port authorities?—The port authorities fix them.
There are special Acts applying to each port, and
according to the powers given by the Acts the port
authorities fix the dues, which vary throughout
India.
43704. Does your department leave the various
authorities free to fix their own charges, or do
H 2
59
43684. Apart from those, the Accountant-General
would have to accept the decision of the Local
Government whether ha thought it a wise one or not ?
—Absolutely.
43685. You have been Accountant-General in Bom-
bay, and what other places ?—The United Provinces
and Bengal.
43686. Was there any difference in your position in
Bombay compared with your position in the other
provinces?—Perhaps a little. The Bombay Govern-
ment make more use of their Accountant-General than
the Bengal Government does. They refer to him
more for financial advice.
43687. They let him take, in fact, part of the work
of the local Financial Secretary ?—There is no doubt
that the Accountant-General in Bombay bears the
same relation to the Bombay Government as the
Comptroller-General does to the Government of India.
All technical questions are referred to him, and he is
made great use of as an assistant to the Financial
Secretary ; whereas in Bengal he is very rarely
referred to.
Mr. 0. T.
Barrow.
3 Feb., 1908.
how far the proposed system is to be restricted. I do
not understand the proposal very clearly. If that is
so, it would cause considerable inconvenience. There
are certain times when you cannot help allowing your
officers leave. At present you have got your Civil
Service recruitment based upon principles which you
are aware of, and those principles in themselves are
rather doubtful; that is to say, you limit the number
of your officers, and perhaps in a direction which is
not quite justifiable.
43690. We have it from one witness that he dislikes
the present recruitment system under which everything
is based on the number of superior appointments ;
every superior appointment practically carries another
inferior appointment with it ?—-I was referring to
that. You limit the number of appointments which
you can make in the Civil Service by the number of
your superior appointments. It is done with the
purpose of allowing every officer to get sufficient
promotion ; but it must have a bad effect if it starves
your administration in the lower ranks. I do not
know that it does it; some provinces complain that it
does.
43688. Does the Bombay system tend to sap the
independence of the Accountant-General?—I should
not think so.
43689. As regards the question raised about a self-
contained cadre, might that not also bring difficulties
with it? You require 30'Deputy Commissioners : the
Local Government is provided with (say) 36 to meet
leave vacancies and so forth, this would also logically
involve the principle that they would have to do with
the 36 ; that they could not appoint more ?—At
present, out of the 30 they might have 10 away, and
they could put in 10 senior Assistants to fill their
places ; under the proposed system, they could not
have more than six away at one time ?—I do not know
43691. Personally, would you be in favour of doing
away with that regular rule, and allowing, as in former
times, recruitment to be based upon the number of
actual appointments made ?—The rule is a perfectly
sound and a very scientific one, and it prevents blocks
of promotion. There is no other way of preventing
them ; you would have the old difficulties if you once
departed from the rule.
43692. The new rule has its inconveniences, but it
was brought in to obviate still more serious incon-
veniencies ?—I quite agree.
(ZTie witness withdrew.)
Adjourned.
SIXTY-THIRD DAY.
Simla, Friday, the Zrd April, 1908.
present :
C. E. H. Hobhouse, Esq., M.P., Under-Secretary of State for India, Chairman.
W. S. Meyer, Esq., C.I.E., I.C.S.
W. L. Hichens, Esq.
Sir Frederic Lely, K.C.I.E., C.S.I.
Sir Steyning Edgerley, K.C.V.O., C.I.E., I.C.S.
R. C. Dutt, Esq., C.I.E.
Mr. B. Robertson, C.I.E., I.C.S., was called and examined.
43693. (Chairman.) You are, Secretary in the
Commerce and Industry Department?—Yes, I have
just joined the appointment; I was acting last
year. I file a memorandum* showing the consti-
tution of the department.
43694. Your appointment has now been con-
firmed?—I have been temporarily appointed again ;
I am still acting.
43695. You say that the department is under
the charge of the Hon’ble Member ; is there any
difference between the constitution of the Depart-
ment of Commerce and Industry and that of the
Home Department ?—There is not, so far as I
know ; I think there is none.
43696. The Secretary in the Home Department
describes that department as under the special care
of an ordinary Member of Council, but states that
the Secretary is at the Head of the Department;
you rather seem to say that the Commerce and
Industry Department is under the charge of the
Hon’ble Member of Council ; there is no real dis-
tinction?—There is no real distinction.
43697. The Member of Council is responsible for
all that is done in the department?—Responsible
to the Government of India.
* Vide Appendix la.
33383
Mr. B.
Robertson.
3 Apr., 1908.
43698. The Secretary is merely the Head of the
office, as it were?—Yes.
43699. You do business with regard to the various
matters mentioned throughout British India and
in all Native States too?—We advise the Foreign
Department of the Government of India on matters
which arise under these heads in Native States.
We are merely the advisers of the Foreign Depart-
ment on matters falling within these heads about
which we are consulted.
43700. Do you correspond direct with these
Native States?—No, we have no direct correspond-
ence.
43701. It all goes to the Foreign Department?—
Yes.
43702. Are port dues and pilotage charges uni-
form throughout India?—No, they are not uniform.
43703. Are they left to the discretion of the
port authorities?—The port authorities fix them.
There are special Acts applying to each port, and
according to the powers given by the Acts the port
authorities fix the dues, which vary throughout
India.
43704. Does your department leave the various
authorities free to fix their own charges, or do
H 2