DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0015
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
'9
is, you would set aside the authority of the municipal-
ity entirely?—There is a little difficulty about the
law ; I would not set aside the authority Of the muni-
cipality entirely, but there is no reason why the muni-
cipality and the Sanitary Commissioner should not
co-operate with each other ; their interests are exactly
the same.
42616. But would you distinctly recognize, as tend-
ing to smooth working, that the Sanitary Commissioner,
or the Deputy Sanitary Commissioner, as the case may
be, acts as adviser of the municipality ?— Certainly,
but I think that he ought to be able to deal with a
recalcitrant municipality ; there ought to be some
power over the municipality. For instance, a Deputy
Sanitary Commissioner at present goes round a muni-
cipality and points out defects ; he writes a note on it
perhaps ; the note is sent in duplicate ; in one province
at any rate, one copy is sent to the Sanitary Commis-
sioner, the other to the Local Government, and
nothing is done. I do not think that is satisfactory.
42617-18. Would not his proper course in a case like
that be to bring the recalcitrancy of the municipality
to the notice of the Government or of the Commis-
sioner or whoever the authority might be?—The
Sanitary Commissioner may weary of doing that.
42619. At present the Sanitary Officer could insist
upon pressing home his recommendations until they
were paid attention to ?—It is an almost impossible
position for him ; in some places any suggestions he
makes are gladly carried out ; in other places nobody
pays any attention to them ; it depends on the place.
42620. Would you suggest any change in the present
system ?—No, I cannot suggest any change.
42621. Have you served as a Deputy Sanitary Com-
missioner yourself ?—No.
42622. Practically you know nothing about the
method of collecting vital statistics ?•—I have gone
round with Sanitary. Commissioners and Deputy Sani-
tary Commissioners and seen how they do it.
42623. What is the agency by which it is usually
done ?—It varies ; in nearly every province at some
stage the police have the collection of them.
42624. Would you be inclined to deprecate the
intervention of the police at any stage ?—Prim& facie
I would ; in practice the more the police have to do
with them the more correct they are. I think it must
be left to the provincial authorities.
42625. (Sir Steymng Edgerley.') You use the phrase
“ to co-ordinate research does that imply control ?—
It is rather a diagrammatic phrase, and I think the
explanation must be rather diagrammatic. Suppose
there is on hand research into a particular subject, I
would ask one man to take one part and another man
to take another, so that they should not both be work-
ing at the same thing ; I would tell A what B had done,
and tell B what A had done.
42626. You would simply divide the work and
control it ?<— That is all.
42627. You would control it? — When I say
“ control,” I think we should say what Work has to be
done. I would not interfere with the man in the
laboratory doing what he likes ; but when it is a large
work you must have control, otherwise all our power is
frittered away.
42628. You were asked whether research work should
be provincial or imperial, and you favour its all being
under your hands, for the reasons that you have first
given ?—I think so, for the present ; if it developes,
then it would be impossible to keep it in one hand.
42629. Your opinion is really that it should be
imperial ?—My opinion is that it should be imperial at
present.
42630. For instance, do you think that so far as any
control is necessary for co-ordinating the work at the
Parel laboratory, it should be exercised by you ; would
you get better results if you had the control ?—Parel is
rather peculiar ; that is the only laboratory that we
have working on plague on a large scale ; there is far
more knowledge about plague in the Parel laboratory
than anywhere else, and I should be sorry to interfere
with it. I can say to them, “ Such and such a dis-
tinguished scientist in Europe says so and so, for
instance that a particular procedure will destroy rats ;
the Local Governments must know if this is true ; will
33383
you make experiments,” and I suggest what the experi-
ment should be, and I should ask the Government of
India (as I do as a matter of fact) to get the apparatus.
42631. You do ask the Government of India for it ?
—We do.
42632. And you get it ?—We get it at once ; we
telegraph for it.
42633. Who pays for it ?—The Government of
India pays, but the Bombay Government administer
the general funds of the Parel laboratory.
42634. Would not the position be very much clearer
if the laboratory was frankly imperial ?—It has got a
certain amount of provincial ■work to do, and I think
we could make an arrangement whereby the provincial
people would be very well pleased with the work that
is done.
42635. I do not put it that they are dissatisfied, but
it is simply a matter of administration.—For the
present it would be very much better indeed if it were
imperial.
42636. That is to say. if you had a free hand you
would, for the present at any rate, go back on the
arrangement which was originally made, whereby the
laboratory was handed over to the provincial Govern-
ment ?—The arrangement was a very curious one ; it
was never entirely handed over to the provincial
Government.
42637. The laboratory was declared provincial ; the
Bombay Government received from the Government
of India Rs. 1,20,000 a year to run it, and are nomin-
ally responsible foi; it ?■—Certainly.
42638. Would an arrangement by which it was
frankly imperial be better ?—I am not prepared even
to say that. If the Bombay Government were willing
to recognize that we did not wish to interfere in their
affairs, frankly I do not care whether it is imperial or
provincial. As it is, it is very difficult to assure the
Bombay Government that one is not interfering
unnecessarily, and there is always the possibility of
trouble.
42639. I am not discussing that question at all.—
But that is what it depends on.
42640. Not at all ; there must be certain functions
for a provincial Government and certain functions for
the Central Government, I simply asked whether you
thought that this sort of scientific research was better
in the hands of the Central Government?—For the
present, it is very much better in the hands of the
Central Government.
42641. Then your view practically is that the Parel
laboratory would be better under the Government of
India ?—Yes. I should like to qualify that state-
ment ; I say, that is for the present ; the thing may
grow so big that it must be under the Local Govern-
ment, but, at present, when it is very small, I think it
ought to be under the central authority.
42642. In the resolution which communicated your
appointment the Government of India said that “ they
had no intention of relieving Local Governments of the
direct control and responsibility they had exercised in
sanitary matters or weakening their authority over
provincial sanitary establishments ” ; that is one state-
ment ; “ and the Sanitary Commissioner -will not be
permitted to encroach in any respect upon the authority
of the Local Government over the officers under their
control, but he will be prepared to confer with them ”
(that is, the provincial Governments) “ informally on
matters connected with sanitation ; he should also
correspond unofficially with provincial Sanitary Com-
missioners and the heads of provincial laboratories;
upon points of departmental procedure, forms and
statistics and purely technical questions ”; is that the
position ?—That is the position ; you will note the word
“ unofficially.”
42643. What is meant by “ points of departmental
procedure ”; how do you construe that phrase ?—I did
not write the resolution.
42644. But what do you understand by it ; the .
resolution was in 1904, and it is now 1908 ?—As to
“ departmental procedure ” in regard to a laboratory,
there is practically no departmental procedure, because
there is as yet no department.
42645. Then does it mean nothing ?—I take it that
it is with a view to developments ; I dislike criticizing
it.
B
Colonel
J. T. W.
Leslie.
4 Jan., 1908.
'9
is, you would set aside the authority of the municipal-
ity entirely?—There is a little difficulty about the
law ; I would not set aside the authority Of the muni-
cipality entirely, but there is no reason why the muni-
cipality and the Sanitary Commissioner should not
co-operate with each other ; their interests are exactly
the same.
42616. But would you distinctly recognize, as tend-
ing to smooth working, that the Sanitary Commissioner,
or the Deputy Sanitary Commissioner, as the case may
be, acts as adviser of the municipality ?— Certainly,
but I think that he ought to be able to deal with a
recalcitrant municipality ; there ought to be some
power over the municipality. For instance, a Deputy
Sanitary Commissioner at present goes round a muni-
cipality and points out defects ; he writes a note on it
perhaps ; the note is sent in duplicate ; in one province
at any rate, one copy is sent to the Sanitary Commis-
sioner, the other to the Local Government, and
nothing is done. I do not think that is satisfactory.
42617-18. Would not his proper course in a case like
that be to bring the recalcitrancy of the municipality
to the notice of the Government or of the Commis-
sioner or whoever the authority might be?—The
Sanitary Commissioner may weary of doing that.
42619. At present the Sanitary Officer could insist
upon pressing home his recommendations until they
were paid attention to ?—It is an almost impossible
position for him ; in some places any suggestions he
makes are gladly carried out ; in other places nobody
pays any attention to them ; it depends on the place.
42620. Would you suggest any change in the present
system ?—No, I cannot suggest any change.
42621. Have you served as a Deputy Sanitary Com-
missioner yourself ?—No.
42622. Practically you know nothing about the
method of collecting vital statistics ?•—I have gone
round with Sanitary. Commissioners and Deputy Sani-
tary Commissioners and seen how they do it.
42623. What is the agency by which it is usually
done ?—It varies ; in nearly every province at some
stage the police have the collection of them.
42624. Would you be inclined to deprecate the
intervention of the police at any stage ?—Prim& facie
I would ; in practice the more the police have to do
with them the more correct they are. I think it must
be left to the provincial authorities.
42625. (Sir Steymng Edgerley.') You use the phrase
“ to co-ordinate research does that imply control ?—
It is rather a diagrammatic phrase, and I think the
explanation must be rather diagrammatic. Suppose
there is on hand research into a particular subject, I
would ask one man to take one part and another man
to take another, so that they should not both be work-
ing at the same thing ; I would tell A what B had done,
and tell B what A had done.
42626. You would simply divide the work and
control it ?<— That is all.
42627. You would control it? — When I say
“ control,” I think we should say what Work has to be
done. I would not interfere with the man in the
laboratory doing what he likes ; but when it is a large
work you must have control, otherwise all our power is
frittered away.
42628. You were asked whether research work should
be provincial or imperial, and you favour its all being
under your hands, for the reasons that you have first
given ?—I think so, for the present ; if it developes,
then it would be impossible to keep it in one hand.
42629. Your opinion is really that it should be
imperial ?—My opinion is that it should be imperial at
present.
42630. For instance, do you think that so far as any
control is necessary for co-ordinating the work at the
Parel laboratory, it should be exercised by you ; would
you get better results if you had the control ?—Parel is
rather peculiar ; that is the only laboratory that we
have working on plague on a large scale ; there is far
more knowledge about plague in the Parel laboratory
than anywhere else, and I should be sorry to interfere
with it. I can say to them, “ Such and such a dis-
tinguished scientist in Europe says so and so, for
instance that a particular procedure will destroy rats ;
the Local Governments must know if this is true ; will
33383
you make experiments,” and I suggest what the experi-
ment should be, and I should ask the Government of
India (as I do as a matter of fact) to get the apparatus.
42631. You do ask the Government of India for it ?
—We do.
42632. And you get it ?—We get it at once ; we
telegraph for it.
42633. Who pays for it ?—The Government of
India pays, but the Bombay Government administer
the general funds of the Parel laboratory.
42634. Would not the position be very much clearer
if the laboratory was frankly imperial ?—It has got a
certain amount of provincial ■work to do, and I think
we could make an arrangement whereby the provincial
people would be very well pleased with the work that
is done.
42635. I do not put it that they are dissatisfied, but
it is simply a matter of administration.—For the
present it would be very much better indeed if it were
imperial.
42636. That is to say. if you had a free hand you
would, for the present at any rate, go back on the
arrangement which was originally made, whereby the
laboratory was handed over to the provincial Govern-
ment ?—The arrangement was a very curious one ; it
was never entirely handed over to the provincial
Government.
42637. The laboratory was declared provincial ; the
Bombay Government received from the Government
of India Rs. 1,20,000 a year to run it, and are nomin-
ally responsible foi; it ?■—Certainly.
42638. Would an arrangement by which it was
frankly imperial be better ?—I am not prepared even
to say that. If the Bombay Government were willing
to recognize that we did not wish to interfere in their
affairs, frankly I do not care whether it is imperial or
provincial. As it is, it is very difficult to assure the
Bombay Government that one is not interfering
unnecessarily, and there is always the possibility of
trouble.
42639. I am not discussing that question at all.—
But that is what it depends on.
42640. Not at all ; there must be certain functions
for a provincial Government and certain functions for
the Central Government, I simply asked whether you
thought that this sort of scientific research was better
in the hands of the Central Government?—For the
present, it is very much better in the hands of the
Central Government.
42641. Then your view practically is that the Parel
laboratory would be better under the Government of
India ?—Yes. I should like to qualify that state-
ment ; I say, that is for the present ; the thing may
grow so big that it must be under the Local Govern-
ment, but, at present, when it is very small, I think it
ought to be under the central authority.
42642. In the resolution which communicated your
appointment the Government of India said that “ they
had no intention of relieving Local Governments of the
direct control and responsibility they had exercised in
sanitary matters or weakening their authority over
provincial sanitary establishments ” ; that is one state-
ment ; “ and the Sanitary Commissioner -will not be
permitted to encroach in any respect upon the authority
of the Local Government over the officers under their
control, but he will be prepared to confer with them ”
(that is, the provincial Governments) “ informally on
matters connected with sanitation ; he should also
correspond unofficially with provincial Sanitary Com-
missioners and the heads of provincial laboratories;
upon points of departmental procedure, forms and
statistics and purely technical questions ”; is that the
position ?—That is the position ; you will note the word
“ unofficially.”
42643. What is meant by “ points of departmental
procedure ”; how do you construe that phrase ?—I did
not write the resolution.
42644. But what do you understand by it ; the .
resolution was in 1904, and it is now 1908 ?—As to
“ departmental procedure ” in regard to a laboratory,
there is practically no departmental procedure, because
there is as yet no department.
42645. Then does it mean nothing ?—I take it that
it is with a view to developments ; I dislike criticizing
it.
B
Colonel
J. T. W.
Leslie.
4 Jan., 1908.