DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0054
Dr. T. H.
Holland.
1 Feb., 1908.
48
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
should be fixed and a fairly high one ; rent is fixed
elsewhere by Act, and it is not a case of allowing the
latitude permitted in India.
43475. As regards delays in dealing with mining
applications, can you say whether there are any pro-
vinces in which they occur ?—Yes, for instance in the
case of Bengal at the end of last October there were
127 cases outstanding, of which 117 were more than
six months old.
43476. Therefore do you think it desirable that the
Government of India should continue to impose the
check it does upon delay by requiring the present
quarterly and half-yearly statements ?—That is most
important, partly because it enables me to keep in
touch with what is going on in the country, and partly
because having to make an explanation of cases more
than six months old makes a difference in clearing off
arrears.
43477. With regard to the question of giving Local
Governments discretion as to the granting of mining
areas—-apart from the matters you have referred to,
there is also the fact that a Local Government is some-
times subject to local influences ?—I presume they
must get local colour ; it is quite impossible for an
officer of a Government to be unaffected by his sur-
roundings.
43478. With regard to Colonial Governments, have
not restrictions been very rigidly laid down by Parlia-
ments?—Yes, and the mining rules are all fixed by
Act.
43479. Do they not lay down specific figures ?—
They fix the rents and areas. The areas are fixed in
maximum, and the rents absolutely without any
maximum or minimum.
43480. Then, as a matter of fact, a Colonial Govern-
ment has really much less discretion than an Indian
Local Government has?—Very much less.
43481. A question has been raised occasionally with
regard to the control exercised by the Government of
India over mining concessions in Native States ; was
not the genesis of that a very considerable scandal in
Hyderabad ?—I have seen that case often quoted,
and there is no doubt that that scandal did lead to a
more rigid control as to the granting of concessions in
Native States.
43482. Which was approved, if not initiated, by the
Secretary of State ?—I have an idea that the Secretary
of State confirmed the action of the Government of
India in exercising that control.
43483. The object in view being to protect Native
States against being exploited by monopolists and
speculators ?—Yes.
43484. And some of those monopolists and specu-
lators might be Indians as well as Europeans ?—No
doubt.
43485. I ask the question because one particular
Government considers that it would be sufficient if the
sanction of the Government of India were required
for the granting of concessions to Europeans in Native
States ?—The Hyderabad scandal was of native origin.
43486. If there was such a rule in force there would
be nothing to prevent an Indian coming in under a
European name ?—No.
43487. Mining concessions are really very important
economically, and therefore a matter of imperial
concern which may legitimately extend to the
Feudatory States as well as to British India proper ?
—Yes ; minerals are essential to the economic life
of the country as a whole, and I am personally of
opinion that the mining in Native States should be
under careful control.
43488. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) Supposing your
mining rules are reasonable and are adopted, is there
any particular necessity for centralization in regard to
granting concessions ?—I think so, because there is a
certain amount of expert knowledge required in the
granting of a concession, and it would require a special
organisation to keep in touch with the work. Take,
for instance, the case of Bombay, where last quarter
they had a sudden rush of 312 applications, whereas
previously their average number was only about 22.
The rush was principally with regard to manganese.
43489. At present Local Governments can give
Exploring and prospecting licences, but you think that
it is absolutely necessary that mining leases within the
rules should go up to the Government of India?—No,
certainly not, they do not go up at present ; the leases
are granted by the Local Government.
43490. Then there is no absolute reason that they
should go up to the Government of India ?—I see no
reason why they should.
43491. Is there any provision that they should come
to you before being granted ?-—There is no provision of
any kind for their coming to me.
43492. Then so long as a local authority keeps
within the rules, which you approve, there is no
necessity for mining leases going up to the Govern-
ment of India ?—No.
43493 (Mr. Dutt.) You have given some figures as
to the gradual increase of mineral concessions ; were
most of those concessions given by provincial Govern-
ments or by the Imperial Government?—-They are
practically all given by the provincial Governments.
They include all forms of mineral concessions, and
only a very small number of them are mining leases
under exceptional terms requiring the sanction of the
Government of India.
43494. Were there a large number of cases in which
the provincial Governments had to go to the Imperial
Government because the terms were beyond the rules ?
—No, such cases are comparatively rare, but I cannot
give a figure.
43495. So that you would suggest that the rules,
as they stand, now enable provincial Governments to
deal with these cases as they come up ?—Yes ; take, for
instance, Bombay—there has been only one application
in five years from Bombay for sanction to depart from
the authorized kind of concessions. That had to go
to the Government of India according to rule.
43496. At present the Collector grants licences ?—
Yes, except where the Local Government retains the
power by its own rule.
43497. Does the grant of a prospecting licence
require any expert knowledge ?—It ought to require
expert knowledge if it is granted with discretion ; it
should be granted by someone who has either expert
advice or is an expert himself.
43498. Does the granting of a mining lease require
expert knowledge ?—Certainly.
43499. When the provincial Governments grant
these licences and leases, do they consult you ?—Very
seldom indeed.
43500. Whom do they consult ?—I am afraid they
consult no one as a rule.
43501. Is it desirable that some expert advice should
be taken before these licences- are granted ?—It is
desirable to get advice, but it is still more desirable
that they should be granted by an expert in charge of
a particular area—a Warden of a particular field.
43502. Does it not come to the same thing ?—Not
exactly ; the Warden would only have power over a
limited area, and he would only be appointed for
a field where mining concessions were frequently
granted ; but in other parts where there are few
applications the ordinary Collector would have the
powers.
43503. What is the number of officers in the
Geological Department ?—Twenty, including myself.
43504. Are they all trained in England ?—Yes, they
are all graduates of some University.
43505. So that obviously it would be impossible to
distribute them amongst all the different provinces ;
and unless their number was added to very largely you
would not have enough men to go round ?—Obviously
not, by arithmetic.
43506. (Mr. Hichens.) Is there any latitude with
regard to the mining royalty which can be imposed by
provinces?—Ko ; the royalties are fixed according to
rule ; but there is a latitude in the interpretation of
the rule ; for instance, a percentage is charged of 24
on the spot value of manganese ore, but the Local
Government has the power in settling a prospecting or
mining lease of determining whether it should be
charged in the form of so many annas per ton as an
equivalent of the authorised percentage on its local
value. Generally they accept so many annas a ton on.
the estimated local value.
Holland.
1 Feb., 1908.
48
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
should be fixed and a fairly high one ; rent is fixed
elsewhere by Act, and it is not a case of allowing the
latitude permitted in India.
43475. As regards delays in dealing with mining
applications, can you say whether there are any pro-
vinces in which they occur ?—Yes, for instance in the
case of Bengal at the end of last October there were
127 cases outstanding, of which 117 were more than
six months old.
43476. Therefore do you think it desirable that the
Government of India should continue to impose the
check it does upon delay by requiring the present
quarterly and half-yearly statements ?—That is most
important, partly because it enables me to keep in
touch with what is going on in the country, and partly
because having to make an explanation of cases more
than six months old makes a difference in clearing off
arrears.
43477. With regard to the question of giving Local
Governments discretion as to the granting of mining
areas—-apart from the matters you have referred to,
there is also the fact that a Local Government is some-
times subject to local influences ?—I presume they
must get local colour ; it is quite impossible for an
officer of a Government to be unaffected by his sur-
roundings.
43478. With regard to Colonial Governments, have
not restrictions been very rigidly laid down by Parlia-
ments?—Yes, and the mining rules are all fixed by
Act.
43479. Do they not lay down specific figures ?—
They fix the rents and areas. The areas are fixed in
maximum, and the rents absolutely without any
maximum or minimum.
43480. Then, as a matter of fact, a Colonial Govern-
ment has really much less discretion than an Indian
Local Government has?—Very much less.
43481. A question has been raised occasionally with
regard to the control exercised by the Government of
India over mining concessions in Native States ; was
not the genesis of that a very considerable scandal in
Hyderabad ?—I have seen that case often quoted,
and there is no doubt that that scandal did lead to a
more rigid control as to the granting of concessions in
Native States.
43482. Which was approved, if not initiated, by the
Secretary of State ?—I have an idea that the Secretary
of State confirmed the action of the Government of
India in exercising that control.
43483. The object in view being to protect Native
States against being exploited by monopolists and
speculators ?—Yes.
43484. And some of those monopolists and specu-
lators might be Indians as well as Europeans ?—No
doubt.
43485. I ask the question because one particular
Government considers that it would be sufficient if the
sanction of the Government of India were required
for the granting of concessions to Europeans in Native
States ?—The Hyderabad scandal was of native origin.
43486. If there was such a rule in force there would
be nothing to prevent an Indian coming in under a
European name ?—No.
43487. Mining concessions are really very important
economically, and therefore a matter of imperial
concern which may legitimately extend to the
Feudatory States as well as to British India proper ?
—Yes ; minerals are essential to the economic life
of the country as a whole, and I am personally of
opinion that the mining in Native States should be
under careful control.
43488. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) Supposing your
mining rules are reasonable and are adopted, is there
any particular necessity for centralization in regard to
granting concessions ?—I think so, because there is a
certain amount of expert knowledge required in the
granting of a concession, and it would require a special
organisation to keep in touch with the work. Take,
for instance, the case of Bombay, where last quarter
they had a sudden rush of 312 applications, whereas
previously their average number was only about 22.
The rush was principally with regard to manganese.
43489. At present Local Governments can give
Exploring and prospecting licences, but you think that
it is absolutely necessary that mining leases within the
rules should go up to the Government of India?—No,
certainly not, they do not go up at present ; the leases
are granted by the Local Government.
43490. Then there is no absolute reason that they
should go up to the Government of India ?—I see no
reason why they should.
43491. Is there any provision that they should come
to you before being granted ?-—There is no provision of
any kind for their coming to me.
43492. Then so long as a local authority keeps
within the rules, which you approve, there is no
necessity for mining leases going up to the Govern-
ment of India ?—No.
43493 (Mr. Dutt.) You have given some figures as
to the gradual increase of mineral concessions ; were
most of those concessions given by provincial Govern-
ments or by the Imperial Government?—-They are
practically all given by the provincial Governments.
They include all forms of mineral concessions, and
only a very small number of them are mining leases
under exceptional terms requiring the sanction of the
Government of India.
43494. Were there a large number of cases in which
the provincial Governments had to go to the Imperial
Government because the terms were beyond the rules ?
—No, such cases are comparatively rare, but I cannot
give a figure.
43495. So that you would suggest that the rules,
as they stand, now enable provincial Governments to
deal with these cases as they come up ?—Yes ; take, for
instance, Bombay—there has been only one application
in five years from Bombay for sanction to depart from
the authorized kind of concessions. That had to go
to the Government of India according to rule.
43496. At present the Collector grants licences ?—
Yes, except where the Local Government retains the
power by its own rule.
43497. Does the grant of a prospecting licence
require any expert knowledge ?—It ought to require
expert knowledge if it is granted with discretion ; it
should be granted by someone who has either expert
advice or is an expert himself.
43498. Does the granting of a mining lease require
expert knowledge ?—Certainly.
43499. When the provincial Governments grant
these licences and leases, do they consult you ?—Very
seldom indeed.
43500. Whom do they consult ?—I am afraid they
consult no one as a rule.
43501. Is it desirable that some expert advice should
be taken before these licences- are granted ?—It is
desirable to get advice, but it is still more desirable
that they should be granted by an expert in charge of
a particular area—a Warden of a particular field.
43502. Does it not come to the same thing ?—Not
exactly ; the Warden would only have power over a
limited area, and he would only be appointed for
a field where mining concessions were frequently
granted ; but in other parts where there are few
applications the ordinary Collector would have the
powers.
43503. What is the number of officers in the
Geological Department ?—Twenty, including myself.
43504. Are they all trained in England ?—Yes, they
are all graduates of some University.
43505. So that obviously it would be impossible to
distribute them amongst all the different provinces ;
and unless their number was added to very largely you
would not have enough men to go round ?—Obviously
not, by arithmetic.
43506. (Mr. Hichens.) Is there any latitude with
regard to the mining royalty which can be imposed by
provinces?—Ko ; the royalties are fixed according to
rule ; but there is a latitude in the interpretation of
the rule ; for instance, a percentage is charged of 24
on the spot value of manganese ore, but the Local
Government has the power in settling a prospecting or
mining lease of determining whether it should be
charged in the form of so many annas per ton as an
equivalent of the authorised percentage on its local
value. Generally they accept so many annas a ton on.
the estimated local value.