DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0060
54
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
43588. You express the opinion that the appoint-
ment of Director General has been of distinct utility
to Local Governments. You were speaking I suppose
very largely from your own impression as Director of
Public Instruction in Bombay ?—No, I do not think I
was.
43589. Do you speak as Director General or as an
educational expert ?—The position is a very peculiar
one. The Director General when he came out from
home necessarily had to spend some time before he
could obtain any information as to W'hat the actual
system, we will say in Bombay, was. Personally, I
myself have derived assistance from the discussions
with the Director General ; % I should have derived
much more had he had five years’ longer experience,
and been able to tell me more of what was going on
in the other provinces.
43590. Then in future is the Director of Public
Instruction in Bombay likely to reap increasing
advantage from the assistance of the Director General ?
—I think so, if both men are reasonable.
43591. And therefore we may say that the Local
Government would also, through its own Director,
obtain advantage ?—I think so, it depends very much
upon the men.
43592. It has been suggested to us that it might be
of advantage if, when a provincial Government had got
some educational scheme on the anvil, it should be at
liberty to consult you about it ; you would give your
ideas to them without, of course, committing the
Government of India ; would that be a useful method ?
—It would be very difficult to carry out ; it is done
to a certain extent. I am attending a conference of
the Bengal educational authorities to-morrow ; this
is about the fifth conference that I have attended
since I have been here in Calcutta, with the view, if I
can, to make any suggestions or to help them in any
way by my experience. That is in the case of schemes
that have not come up to the Government of India.
That is, I think, the ideal position ; but as the
Director General cannot go to all the Governments
exactly when they are considering certain proposals,
it would be impossible for that to be carried out
always.
43593. They might write to you ?—I do not think it
would be a good thing for a Local Government to
write to the Director General separately apart from the
Government of India and say to them, “This is our
scheme ; what do you think about it ? ” I think
there would be obiections to that. It might be
rather putting the Director General into a position in
which he was more or less independent of the Govern-
ment of India. Suppose that the Director General
saw considerable reason to differ from the Local
Government in the scheme that they sent up, and he
wrote and said, “ I do not think this scheme is com-
plete or sufficient in this or that respect,” and they
wrote back and said, “ But you do not understand the
scheme ; we want so-and-so and so-and-so and he
wrote back and said, “Still I do not think so you
would have a correspondence growing up that I do not
think would be desirable. Whereas should he meet
the Local Government they can talk as much as they
like and listen to what he has to say, but it would be
a very different thing to having a long correspondence
springing up, both sides differing.
43594. It has also been suggested that in cases where
you advise the Government of India against some
scheme sent up by the Local Government, the Local
Government should have an opportunity of knowing
your views and possibly replying to them before final
orders are passed ; would that be practicable ?—
Speaking as Director General, if my views are accepted
by the Home Department, those views are included in
the letter which they address to the Local Government.
43595. But the proposal was that you having
recorded your view, there should be a stay in the
proceedings until your view was communicated to
the Local Government and the Government of India
had learnt what the Local Government had to say in
reply?'—That is assuming that the Government of
India accept my views. If the Government of India
do not accept my views then it would only add to the
confusion it my views were sent off to the Local
Government as the views of the Director General.
43596. There -would be nothing to be gained by it ?
—I think not.
43597. It has also been suggested in Bengal that the
Government of India, in educational matters, inter-
fered too much with questions of detail ; the matter
of a play-ground attached to the College at Sibpur
was instanced ?—I cannot understand the evidence..
'I he Government of Bengal had a very large scheme
to create an Arts’ College at Ranchi and at the same
time to remove the Sibpur College to Ranchi. The
cost of this scheme will be very great. The area of
land taken up at Ranchi is very considerable. When
the whole question came up before the Government of'
India it appeared that there might be a saving if
scientific laboratories for instance were made common
to the two institutions. Also it was suggested (the
suggestion did not come from me) that possibly it
might be a good thing to have'common play-grounds,
and the Government of India suggested to the
Government of Bengal that that might be discussed
conveniently when the Director General came to
Calcutta. I think the Government of India’s sugges-
tion was made in October, and it was known that I
should be in Calcutta in December. We held a
discussion and we decided upon a certain course which
was most desirable in regard to these play-grounds and
laboratories. As a matter of fact, when one saw the.
whole site of the two colleges one decided that each
should have its own play-ground and its own labora-
tories. I do not call that a matter of detail. It seems
to me that they ought to consult in a large scheme of
that sort. If the Government of India had said “ Youi
shall only have one play-ground,” it would have been
interference.
43598. In any case the scheme could not have been
carried out for some time to come ?—No, the scheme
will not be carried out for some years.
43599. So that there was no blocking of the-
scheme ?—No blocking whatever.
43G00. Do District Boards and municipalities in
Bombay, maintain schools of their own ?—There is
this slight difference. In the case of the District
Boards they have an income of their own from which
they maintain schools ; it is made up of their own cess-
income, the provincial grant and fee receipts from,
which they maintain Board schools throughout eachi
district. There is a sum of money, not very large —I
think it is Rs. 60,000 a year—which is paid fromi
provincial funds to aid primary schools in the same
area ; so that the District Boards do not actually aid
any schools in their area ; they spend all their money
in maintaining Board schools. In the municipalities,
it is very nearly the same, except that there is nothing
to prevent a municipality from giving a small grant-
in-aid to a school.
' 43601. .We have been told, in Eastern Bengal and
Assam for instance, that where a Local Board does-
maintain a school, it has to maintain it under the
rigid rules of the provincial code which regulate the
number of masters to be employed, and their salaries,
and so on ; is that the case in Bombay ?—In Bombay
the Education Department admininisters the District
Board schools direct, not the municipal schools.
43602. And the District Board has the privilege of
paying for them ?—The Board makes its budget ; it
has a free hand in deciding where the school shall be-
opened and what fees shall be charged. I am including
in District Boards, taluka Boards, and so on. The
actual administration—that is to say, the appointments,
and removal and punishment of teachers—is left to the.
Educational Department.
43603. Is it the same in regard to municipalities ?—
Municipalities manage their own schools. The depart-
ment only inspects the schools of municipalities,,
except in the case of one or two very minor munici-
palities, which give over the administration to the.
department ; all the larger municipalities manage their
own schools entirely.
43604. Speaking generally, might the local bodies in.
Bombay, including both Local Boards and municipali-
ties, have a freer hand in education ?—I think it would
be fatal if the District Boards in Bombay attempted
to actually administer the schools ; people do not often
realise what actual administration means ; my own
experience tells me that if the District Boards had
to decide on the appointment of a master to a school
on Rs. 12 a month, it would take them perhaps five.,
months to get the order out.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
43588. You express the opinion that the appoint-
ment of Director General has been of distinct utility
to Local Governments. You were speaking I suppose
very largely from your own impression as Director of
Public Instruction in Bombay ?—No, I do not think I
was.
43589. Do you speak as Director General or as an
educational expert ?—The position is a very peculiar
one. The Director General when he came out from
home necessarily had to spend some time before he
could obtain any information as to W'hat the actual
system, we will say in Bombay, was. Personally, I
myself have derived assistance from the discussions
with the Director General ; % I should have derived
much more had he had five years’ longer experience,
and been able to tell me more of what was going on
in the other provinces.
43590. Then in future is the Director of Public
Instruction in Bombay likely to reap increasing
advantage from the assistance of the Director General ?
—I think so, if both men are reasonable.
43591. And therefore we may say that the Local
Government would also, through its own Director,
obtain advantage ?—I think so, it depends very much
upon the men.
43592. It has been suggested to us that it might be
of advantage if, when a provincial Government had got
some educational scheme on the anvil, it should be at
liberty to consult you about it ; you would give your
ideas to them without, of course, committing the
Government of India ; would that be a useful method ?
—It would be very difficult to carry out ; it is done
to a certain extent. I am attending a conference of
the Bengal educational authorities to-morrow ; this
is about the fifth conference that I have attended
since I have been here in Calcutta, with the view, if I
can, to make any suggestions or to help them in any
way by my experience. That is in the case of schemes
that have not come up to the Government of India.
That is, I think, the ideal position ; but as the
Director General cannot go to all the Governments
exactly when they are considering certain proposals,
it would be impossible for that to be carried out
always.
43593. They might write to you ?—I do not think it
would be a good thing for a Local Government to
write to the Director General separately apart from the
Government of India and say to them, “This is our
scheme ; what do you think about it ? ” I think
there would be obiections to that. It might be
rather putting the Director General into a position in
which he was more or less independent of the Govern-
ment of India. Suppose that the Director General
saw considerable reason to differ from the Local
Government in the scheme that they sent up, and he
wrote and said, “ I do not think this scheme is com-
plete or sufficient in this or that respect,” and they
wrote back and said, “ But you do not understand the
scheme ; we want so-and-so and so-and-so and he
wrote back and said, “Still I do not think so you
would have a correspondence growing up that I do not
think would be desirable. Whereas should he meet
the Local Government they can talk as much as they
like and listen to what he has to say, but it would be
a very different thing to having a long correspondence
springing up, both sides differing.
43594. It has also been suggested that in cases where
you advise the Government of India against some
scheme sent up by the Local Government, the Local
Government should have an opportunity of knowing
your views and possibly replying to them before final
orders are passed ; would that be practicable ?—
Speaking as Director General, if my views are accepted
by the Home Department, those views are included in
the letter which they address to the Local Government.
43595. But the proposal was that you having
recorded your view, there should be a stay in the
proceedings until your view was communicated to
the Local Government and the Government of India
had learnt what the Local Government had to say in
reply?'—That is assuming that the Government of
India accept my views. If the Government of India
do not accept my views then it would only add to the
confusion it my views were sent off to the Local
Government as the views of the Director General.
43596. There -would be nothing to be gained by it ?
—I think not.
43597. It has also been suggested in Bengal that the
Government of India, in educational matters, inter-
fered too much with questions of detail ; the matter
of a play-ground attached to the College at Sibpur
was instanced ?—I cannot understand the evidence..
'I he Government of Bengal had a very large scheme
to create an Arts’ College at Ranchi and at the same
time to remove the Sibpur College to Ranchi. The
cost of this scheme will be very great. The area of
land taken up at Ranchi is very considerable. When
the whole question came up before the Government of'
India it appeared that there might be a saving if
scientific laboratories for instance were made common
to the two institutions. Also it was suggested (the
suggestion did not come from me) that possibly it
might be a good thing to have'common play-grounds,
and the Government of India suggested to the
Government of Bengal that that might be discussed
conveniently when the Director General came to
Calcutta. I think the Government of India’s sugges-
tion was made in October, and it was known that I
should be in Calcutta in December. We held a
discussion and we decided upon a certain course which
was most desirable in regard to these play-grounds and
laboratories. As a matter of fact, when one saw the.
whole site of the two colleges one decided that each
should have its own play-ground and its own labora-
tories. I do not call that a matter of detail. It seems
to me that they ought to consult in a large scheme of
that sort. If the Government of India had said “ Youi
shall only have one play-ground,” it would have been
interference.
43598. In any case the scheme could not have been
carried out for some time to come ?—No, the scheme
will not be carried out for some years.
43599. So that there was no blocking of the-
scheme ?—No blocking whatever.
43G00. Do District Boards and municipalities in
Bombay, maintain schools of their own ?—There is
this slight difference. In the case of the District
Boards they have an income of their own from which
they maintain schools ; it is made up of their own cess-
income, the provincial grant and fee receipts from,
which they maintain Board schools throughout eachi
district. There is a sum of money, not very large —I
think it is Rs. 60,000 a year—which is paid fromi
provincial funds to aid primary schools in the same
area ; so that the District Boards do not actually aid
any schools in their area ; they spend all their money
in maintaining Board schools. In the municipalities,
it is very nearly the same, except that there is nothing
to prevent a municipality from giving a small grant-
in-aid to a school.
' 43601. .We have been told, in Eastern Bengal and
Assam for instance, that where a Local Board does-
maintain a school, it has to maintain it under the
rigid rules of the provincial code which regulate the
number of masters to be employed, and their salaries,
and so on ; is that the case in Bombay ?—In Bombay
the Education Department admininisters the District
Board schools direct, not the municipal schools.
43602. And the District Board has the privilege of
paying for them ?—The Board makes its budget ; it
has a free hand in deciding where the school shall be-
opened and what fees shall be charged. I am including
in District Boards, taluka Boards, and so on. The
actual administration—that is to say, the appointments,
and removal and punishment of teachers—is left to the.
Educational Department.
43603. Is it the same in regard to municipalities ?—
Municipalities manage their own schools. The depart-
ment only inspects the schools of municipalities,,
except in the case of one or two very minor munici-
palities, which give over the administration to the.
department ; all the larger municipalities manage their
own schools entirely.
43604. Speaking generally, might the local bodies in.
Bombay, including both Local Boards and municipali-
ties, have a freer hand in education ?—I think it would
be fatal if the District Boards in Bombay attempted
to actually administer the schools ; people do not often
realise what actual administration means ; my own
experience tells me that if the District Boards had
to decide on the appointment of a master to a school
on Rs. 12 a month, it would take them perhaps five.,
months to get the order out.